Wednesday, July 26, 2006

Holocaust Deniers and 9-11 Truth

We have talked about this in the past, but there is an interesting overlap between 9-11 Deniers and Holocaust Deniers. Perhaps the classic example of this is Eric Hufschmid, who goes so far as to call Dylan Avery and the Louder Than Words crew "Holocaust Promoters".

In a way, the convergence of 9-11 Denial and Holocaust Denial is not surprising. First, both groups posit vast plots to deceive the people as to a major historical event. Second, many anti-Semites immediately leapt on the idea of the Mossad as being behind the 9-11 attacks, putting them early in the 9-11 Denial Movement. And third, you have an intersection of many people wanting to move the story off 19 Islamofascist hijackers, including Muslims, Neo-Nazis and 9-11 Deniers.

Who Is Rick Rajter?

A particularly interesting 9-11 Denier is Rick Rajter. Rajter is a student member of the "Scholars" for 9-11 Denial. He is cited in a new paper (PDF file, see Page 24) by Professor Stephen Jones, as being in the process of preparing a rebuttal of 9-11 Myths. He has also collaborated with "Scholar" full member Morgan Reynolds on Reynold's website.

Rick is a young man, recently graduated from MIT. He's apparently an athlete as well, as his bio here notes:

Born in raised in a small town in upstate NY, Rick came to MIT as an undergraduat in Materials Science and Engineering in 1999. Though rife with injuries during his undergraduate years, Rick's determination led him to such accomplishments as MVP of the indoor track team, leading season point scorer 3 times and Indoor NE Div III Pentathlon Champion.

(Update: A prior version of this post mentioned two other individuals on Rajter's MIT track team who obviously have nothing to do with his odious views, but were mentioned in his bio. I have removed their names from the post and wish those men nothing but the best.)

Obviously not much of a writer; there are a couple misspellings and some awkward phrasings in that brief paragraph.

But he's also a Holocaust Denier.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad makes a very good point, stating that

“Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail,”

Exactly. European countries are doing everything they can to quickly imprison and silence these revisionists. But why? Why not show them the facts and shut them up? Well, unfortunately the facts are not in their favor. So imprisonment becomes their ‘final’ solution :)

Of course, the media is having a hissy fit with his statements, and the ADL probably shat a brick upon hearing someone question the standard old “6 million died” rhetoric that we’ve been fed for years. Don’t worry, we’ll invade them soon and set the record straight.

Many other resources point out the contradictions and science of why the 6 million figure is preposterous. I guess even saying that makes me anti-semitic eh? But I’d rather tell the truth than worry about what people think about me.


Note in particular that Rajter links to Stormfront, a neo-Nazi site under the word "other" in that last parargraph. When his dubious citations are brought up in the comments, Rick responds (3rd comment):

Also, who cares if IHR is a “known holocaust denier” website. If I’m making the argument that 6 million didn’t die, wouldn’t they be a source I would want to cite? Particularly since they’ve put a lot of hours of research into it. Sure, they are biased. You know what, so are those that believe 6 million died. You know, when Auschwitz lowered their “official” death toll down from 4 million to 1.5 million, the “6 million total” remained. I don’t know about you, but basic math dictates that the number should at least go down to 4 million even if you believe the official numbers.

Cheers
-Rick

Comment by Rick Rajter — 2005-12-09 @ 4:18 pm


Say it loud, say it proud, Rick. The argument about Auschwitz is such a familiar trope of the Holocaust Deniers that it's even mentioned in the Wikipedia Entry on Auschwitz:

For many years, a memorial plaque placed at the camp by the Soviet authorities and the Polish communist government stated that 4 million people had been murdered at Auschwitz. This number was never taken seriously by Western historians, and was never used in any of the calculations of the death toll at Auschwitz (which have generally remained consistently around 1-1.5 million for the last sixty years) or for the total deaths in the Holocaust as a whole. After the collapse of the Communist government, the plaque was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda....


Essentially what the Holocaust Deniers try to claim is that the 6 million estimate includes 4 million at Auschwitz, but we know know the total deaths there were more like 1.5 million, so that means we have to reduce the estimate of the total number of Jews killed in the Holocaust to 3.5 million (6 million less 2.5 million).

See also comment #17 on that thread by Rick:

Interestingly enough, the Red cross later apologized for not agreeing with the numbers of 6 million (there red cross tally, I believe, was on the order of 400,000) and those deaths were not due to gassings and/or bullets to the head… but rather rampant sickness from typhus, malaria, etc from the marshy lands in Poland.

I don’t deny that people don’t have tattoos on their arms and actually had to stay in the barracks… but there’s absolutely no proof of gas chambers being used to kill people. In fact, the one gas chamber they do show has a plaque stating that it was built after the war!


So he doesn't even buy the 1.0-1.5 million estimate. Just disgusting. We'll see if the Scholars, Morgan Reynolds and Professor Jones disassociate themselves from this young man.

Hat Tip: (On Rajter) to Kent1 at the JREF forums.

24 Comments:

At 26 July, 2006 12:44, Blogger shawn said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 26 July, 2006 12:46, Blogger shawn said...

I'm getting sick of the deconstructionism of these folks (what with their removing the meaning from words). He calls the 6 million dead "rhetoric". It isn't rhetoric, it's what happened. Six million Jews were systematically killed, there were six million less Jews on the planet at the end of the war than before. Six million people don't disappear (unless you march them through gates telling them work will set them free and then gas them to death).

What I have yet to see is them questioning the numbers of the other five million slaughtered. Why is the focus on the deaths of the Jews? Either it's a historically sound focus on the focus of the Nazi's genocide, or (more likely) an irrational hatred for a group and you don't want to paint them as opportunists as opposed to victims.

And it's really pissing me off how antisemites say "how am I an antisemite" then say something antisemitic. You are an antisemite if you're a holocaust denier (or revisionist or what have you). The first post on my blog touches on this subject of pretending antisemitism is used to silence critics, when in fact it's almost always used correctly against such bigots.

 
At 26 July, 2006 14:04, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

I am sorry, but whether it was 6 Million or 2 Million, that is still an abhorent amount of people to have been murdered simply for their religious beliefs.

The only good thing about having him on the CT side, is that he isn't on our side. he is so sickening, he will only make me research harder, and longer, to prove morons like him wrong.

 
At 26 July, 2006 14:32, Blogger CHF said...

Gee wiz, the same people who tend to believe the Holocaust was a hoax also believe 9/11 was a CIA/Jewish plot.

I wonder why...

Probably because the mindless logic used by both arguments is pretty much the same!

Truthers and Holocasut Deniers both analyize their subjects from a position of complete ignorance, ignore evidence they don't like, present "experts" who are anything but and fill in their theory's many holes with: "the evidence is being covered up" or "that was planted/faked."

An utterly revolting group.

 
At 26 July, 2006 16:18, Blogger 911coverup said...

Yes holocaust and 9/11 are both connected, no doubt

 
At 26 July, 2006 16:23, Blogger 911coverup said...

(07-21) 04:00 PDT Jerusalem -- Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.

In the six years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL

The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that b]its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1742306,00050004.htm

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut.
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

 
At 26 July, 2006 16:24, Blogger 911coverup said...

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel.
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1180404.php/Hezbollah_back_in_the_spotlight_after_capturing_soldiers

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

In a deliberated way, Tsahal sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aïta Al Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, making two prisoners.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

 
At 26 July, 2006 16:28, Blogger 911coverup said...

http://newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Page 51-52, written in 2000. And guess who gets the blame by the west for inciting the war in lebanon? Iran and Syria.

And you wonder how us 9/11 conspiracy kooks predicted this would happen.

 
At 26 July, 2006 17:07, Blogger CHF said...

Umm...did you even read the pages you refered to?

It states that Iran, Iraq, Syria, North Korea and Liyba are developing (or have developed) missiles capable of hitting the US or her allies and that missile defeses are needed to counter the threat.

It doesn't mention Israel or regional war.

 
At 26 July, 2006 17:08, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

(1) How is any of what you have spued related (a) to 9/11, or (b) the hollocaust.

(2) The Israel army would be ready on a moments notice for anything, and have been for 30 years. They and the palastinians have lived in a state of constant war for that length of time or longer.

(3) Defend Hezbollah all you want. They hate you as much as they hate the debunkers, and if you think they will spare you when they've got the machete to your throat, think again.

(4) next time provide a little concrete evidence related to the topic at hand, if you want to carry any credibility around here.

 
At 26 July, 2006 17:09, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

My comments are directed at 911coverup

 
At 26 July, 2006 17:16, Blogger shawn said...

911coverup is a moron and is ignorant of the situation (as usual with these people).

Hizbollah (and Lebanon at large) have problems with what the actual border with Israel is. The men were kidnapped (not "captured) in Israel.

 
At 26 July, 2006 17:18, Blogger shawn said...

Page 51-52, written in 2000. And guess who gets the blame by the west for inciting the war in lebanon? Iran and Syria.

And you wonder how us 9/11 conspiracy kooks predicted this would happen.


Except what you idiots continue to miss in the document is it outlines how to build up the military WITHOUT A CATASTROPHIC ATTACK AND WITHOUT BEING INVOLVED IN A GROUND WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Do you people even read?

You didn't predict anything. All this nonsense comes after the fact where you can pick and choose what evidence will fit in your "theories".

 
At 26 July, 2006 17:26, Blogger shawn said...

Hmm and I wonder why Iran and Syria get the blame? Probably because they fund the aggressors in the war.

 
At 26 July, 2006 19:33, Blogger Tiguhs said...

You've gotta be a pretty sick individual to use the Holocaust in your quest to debunk the Loose Change crowd. I'm no fan of Loose Change; I think it is crap propaganda. But you need to understand that Loose Change isn't synonymous with the 9/11 Skeptics community.

Using the Holocaust deniers as an example to deride the 9/11 skeptics is stooping to the level Loose Change stooped to---propaganda and sensationalism.

You should be ashamed.

 
At 26 July, 2006 20:12, Blogger shawn said...

But you need to understand that Loose Change isn't synonymous with the 9/11 Skeptics community.


Uh, pal, you should be ashamed at calling the Truth movement "skeptics". I'm a skeptic, and believe me, these people don't fit the bill at all.

(I assume you're one of them, since no rational individual would defend them.)

Using the Holocaust deniers as an example to deride the 9/11 skeptics is stooping to the level Loose Change stooped to---propaganda and sensationalism.

...except he's showing a 9/11 "skeptic" (don't use the term anymore, please, it's Orwellian) who's also a Holocaust denier.\

Not to mention the psychology behind both is quite similar.

 
At 27 July, 2006 07:02, Blogger CHF said...

"You've gotta be a pretty sick individual to use the Holocaust in your quest to debunk the Loose Change crowd."

Right, it's just pure coincidence that their logic is exactly the same and that most Holocaust Deniers believe 911 conspiracies as well.

It's also just coincidence that the creators of Loose Change (the most popular 911 CT movie) suck up to Holocaust Deniers.

Yeah, let's not assume that means there's a link.

 
At 27 July, 2006 09:23, Blogger JPSlovjanski said...

Hey, Conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories- they are based on the same general "laws" and logical fallacies. It is only natural that they overlap and cross paths.

 
At 27 July, 2006 11:31, Blogger Pat said...

Tiguhs, I'd say that we're using the Holocaust denier to discredit the Scholars here; particularly Morgan Reynolds and Stephen Jones who are promoting his work. Indeed, Dylan and Bermas resisted embracing the anti-Zionist stuff from Hufschmid, which is one of the few things I've given them credit for on this blog.

 
At 27 August, 2006 00:25, Blogger Ted Bagg said...

It's clear that there's a vocal antisemitic component among those who espouse the thesis that 9/11 was an inside job, probably because, indeed, some of the criminals responsible for the Bush administration's crimes are evidently driven by a misguided conception of Israel's best interest, at the expense of the USA. But there's a radical difference in the quality of evidence for holocaust denial versus 9/11 treason. The Holocaust is well documented by both victim and perpetrator. The claims made by the Bush administration regarding 9/11, on the other hand, really aren't. If one doubts the authenticity of Osama's putative confession, the FBI can't even prove he's responsible. While stubbornly resisting public demands for a formal investigation of 9/11, the Bush administration used it as a pretext to sink our military into two ongoing foreign occupations which have dragged on for years and both of whose prospects become bleaker by the week. The 9/11 Commission, convened finally after much stonewalling by Bush & co., produced a clearly erroneous and incomplete report, suppressing and evidently falsifying important facts. Anyone tempted to buy the blanket condemnations above of those who argue that 9/11 was an inside job really owes it to him or herself to read the cogent and powerful arguments offered by scholars such as Steven Jones and David Griffin; for example, "The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Can't be True"
http://www.mujca.com/textnewyork.htm

Another point: There's really an inversion in comparing the Holocaust with 9/11: The destruction of the WTC and the attendant murder of three thousand people, terrible crime though it is, doesn't compare either to the Holocaust or to the invasion and occupation of two nations (and counting), with the attendant murder of tens or hundreds of thousands of people and trillions in damage.

 
At 11 September, 2006 10:01, Blogger CHF said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 23 February, 2008 13:22, Blogger Len Hart said...

The only arguments offered up by Bush defenders and the 911 Liars movement are 1) ad hominem attacks 1) change the subject ('it's all about Jews') and 3) rabid, teeth gnashing denial.

The latest tactic is a FOCUS GROUP fraud, that of labeling those who demand an investgation of this crime "911 Deniers". No one is denying 911. It happened, you idiots!

That label was concocted by a GOP financed focus group. It's typical of the ilk. Those who cannot debate, label!

You entire 'movement' is bogus. It's a fraud! The tactics are fallacious and fraudulent and not even original.

Moreover, if you are not for truth, then, it follows, you are for continuing the lies.

EVEN THE CO-CHAIRS OF THE 911 COMMISSION HAVE DISOWNED THEIR WORK!!!! Didn't you get the memo?

If they cannot believe their own work, then why should anyone else?

Get a life, losers!

 
At 14 May, 2008 19:39, Blogger soraya said...

ignorant hicks...i wish god actually exixted so he could burn your stupid asses

 
At 21 June, 2011 19:12, Blogger the_last_name_left said...

Blog says

"Essentially what the Holocaust Deniers try to claim is that the 6 million estimate includes 4 million at Auschwitz, but we know know the total deaths there were more like 1.5 million, so that means we have to reduce the estimate of the total number of Jews killed in the Holocaust to 3.5 million (6 million less 2.5 million)."
--------

Just to be clear, that's wrong.

After the war, Auschwitz was under Russian/Soviet control.

It was a Soviet claim that 4 million were murdered at Auschwitz.

Western historians had *never* accepted that figure. Western historians had quite early-on settled upon a figure around 1.1-1.5 million for Auschwitz.

When the Soviet Union was overthrown, and Poland was freed from the yoke of Stalinist falsification, they undertook a new and thorough re-assessment.

The new investigation arrived at the same figure western historians had always cited ie 1.1 to 1.5 million.

So, whilst the plaque was changed (from 4m down to 1.1) there was no need for Western historians to change their overall figure for the Holocaust, because they had *never* used the Russian figure for Auschwitz as part of the total.

In fact, the change (following a new investigation) serves only to further confirm the figure western historians had *always* used.

 

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