Wednesday, September 14, 2011

Why I Don't Plan to Defeat the Truthers for All Time

 You may recall that Guitar Bill made some comment along those lines a week or two ago.  We didn't want to defeat the Truthers forever because we got some sort of reflected glory and fame from their continued existence.

But really, it's not that.  Look, the BBC probably spent tens of thousands of dollars on that Road Trip documentary, and how successful were they?  They flipped one out of five Truthers to the rational cause.  And that's actually phenomenally successful.

Jonathan Swift observed centuries ago that you cannot reason a man out of an idea that he was never reasoned into in the first place.  Truthers do not  construct their arguments rationally, building evidence and seeing where that evidence takes them.  They start with the conclusion: Bush/Cheney did it and work backwards, seeking little facts that would appear to prop up that deduction.  Remember the guy who compared the building collapses to the Jenga game?  Well, Truthers are playing the Jenga game in reverse.  Instead of pulling a piece out here or there, and seeing if the whole thing falls apart, they are putting pieces in place and marveling that the whole thing never falls over.  Well, duh!

We can see this in the way the conclusion never changes, even though the evidence cited may.  I pointed out awhile ago, that Jon Gold's second review on Amazon was a rave for Kevin Fenton's new book, which argues the LIHOP theory.  His first review was for one of David Ray Griffin's MIHOP books, and there again, Gold was rapturous.

Of course, Gold has become much more skeptical about Griffin over the past few years, to his credit.  But... the conclusion didn't change significantly.  Yes, you can say that LIHOP is quite a shift from MIHOP, but it's really just a fallback position, and given what he said to Matt Taibbi on Facebook about elements in the government more than earning the title of suspect for the crimes of 9-11, it's not a stretch to believe that Gold is still clinging to the more extreme conspiracy theory, just being a little less honest about it.

For more evidence, look at Gold's reaction to Charlie Veitch's apostasy from the party line.  Now remember, Veitch's rationale for supporting the Truthers was that he bought into the controlled demolition arguments, as he cited when given his chance on the Road Trip bus.  And Gold has often lamented that the Truth Movement has evolved into the Controlled Demolition movement.  So you might think that Gold's response would be something along the lines of "Well, that's what happens when you lead with the CD arguments."

Nope:

Whether or not he's an "infiltrator" or not, he denounced this cause using the officially designated issue that has been made synonymous with this cause through other infiltration.
 I'm not even sure what the heck that means.  Is Richard Gage an infiltrator?  Is Steven Jones?

Jim D pointed out in a post that Gold seems to defend the Truth Movement from any attacks, even those that cite the weakest crap, like Griffin's endless claims that nine of the hijackers are alive:

You are proving that you care more about your church than the salvation of it's members. In short you truthers are promoting the cult like fringe aspects that are such a turn off to people myself included. I have seen lie after lie put out immediately by members of the 9-11 truth church in regards to this book because the authors do not worship at your 9-11 truth church. I don't either and this is why. After 10 years one might think you would have gained a little insight in what makes a movement successful. Your movement is extremely unsuccessful and you yourselves are exposing why.
 Gold responds:
By the way... I love Jim's dishonest portrayal of us being apart of the "cult." Douchebag. Nah... the people here haven't spoken out against the stupidity more than anyone else... constantly writing pointers on how to approach people... constantly trying to promote the most credible information... calling out lunacy where its found... yea... we are so apart of the cult. Douchebag.
Yes, they occasionally point out the lunacy; after we rub their faces in it enough times.  But where was this sensible Gold five years ago, when he wrote that review on Amazon about how one day people would be comparing David Ray Griffin to Martin Luther King and Gandhi?  Answer: He's been beaten back from that crap, but not so far that he's changed any conclusions; he's just changed the evidence he cites.



Comments open.

26 Comments:

At 14 September, 2011 05:44, Blogger William Giltner said...

http://haskellfamily.blogspot.com/2011/09/colossal-deceit-known-as-underwear.html

 
At 14 September, 2011 06:39, Blogger Jon Gold said...

http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7342

And actually, my "evidence" hasn't changed at all. Ever. I have been extremely consistent. So you're just an all around lying, worthless human being.

 
At 14 September, 2011 07:41, Blogger GuitarBill said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 14 September, 2011 07:54, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 14 September, 2011 07:56, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

From http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7342:

[Pat has been doing this] for 5 years or so. Day in, and day out. About something he and his kind repeatedly say there is "nothing" to. No cover-up of any kind, etc... and so on.

Jon, if Pat went away and SLC disappeared tomorrow, what effect would that have on your cause?

 
At 14 September, 2011 08:16, Blogger GuitarBill said...

My experience teaches me that there are two kinds of troofers: [1] Sincere troofers who are duped by the 9/11 "truth" movements "leaders" (people like our friend Charlie Veitch); and [2] insincere troofers who are driven by a hidden agenda. They tend to lead the so-called "movement" (although not in every case) and are almost always compulsive liars with no respect for the "truth" (people like Brian "goat fucker" Good, "Cosmos," "Arabesque," "Wolsey," "Col. Jenny Sparks," David Ray Grifter, Steven Jones, Jim Hoffman, and "Jon Gold", etc).

You can reason with the people in the first group. The scumbags in the second group are simply beyond redemption. And under no circumstances should you tolerate the people in the second group. They're not interested in debate. In fact, they're propagandists who are Hell-bent to overthrow the US government.

And that's why you should NEVER give the dangerous scumbags in the second group a platform for their lies.

If you think for one microsecond, Pat, that this is all fun and games, you are sadly mistaken. The folks in the second group want to hang you by the neck and make an example of you. And if you think I'm kidding, ask Kevin Barrett (and that's just one example).

 
At 14 September, 2011 10:04, Blogger James B. said...

Jon, you used to support DRG, now you attack him.DRG hasn't changed his views. So what has changed?

 
At 14 September, 2011 12:30, Blogger zendingo said...

Pat and James B.,
you guys only had one snarky post about umar farouk abdulmutallab and the well dressed man. why wasn't there any follow up debunking of the claims about U.S. government agents getting umar on the plane? what’s the deal? kurt haskell has remained consistent in his claims, why didn’t you follow up?

 
At 14 September, 2011 12:54, Blogger Pat said...

My guess is the Haskells must be wrong about him not having a passport, since the government has released his passport photo.

End of story.

 
At 14 September, 2011 13:30, Blogger GuitarBill said...

Question: Has anyone taken the time to look at Jon "pass the Big Mac" Gold's link to the troofaction forum?

How does that link support his "extremely consistent" assertion?

And remember, I'm just askin' questions...

 
At 14 September, 2011 13:37, Blogger snug.bug said...

The inability of debunkers to recognize themselves in Swift's observation about unreasonable ideas is amusing. Youse guys start with the belief that truthers are the dumbest people in the world, you invent your facts, and you seem to be incapable of recognizing that the bigoted wackos you delight in skewering bring guilt to the Jersey widows and the architects and engineers only in an association you've constructed out of nothing.

It's just like opining that blacks are an inferior race based on your experience with a mentally retarded crack-head who wants to pump gas for you at the filling station.

The distinction between MIHOP and LIHOP is trivial, they're both treason, as David Kubiak points out. And if Osama was a CIA asset, as Sibel Edmonds claims, then LIHOP is MIHOP-with-patsies even if the alleged hijackers actually were committed and enthusiastic terrorists as the government claims.

David Ray Griffin has changed over the years. It is hardly dishonest of Jon to re-evaluate his position in the face of new developments.

 
At 14 September, 2011 13:46, Blogger GuitarBill said...

The goat fucker squeals, "...David Ray Griffin has changed over the years. It is hardly dishonest of Jon to re-evaluate his position in the face of new developments."

Really? No kidding?

How does that assertion square with Jon "pass the Big Mac" Gold's "extremely consistent" malarkey?

And remember, cretin, I'm just askin' questions...

 
At 14 September, 2011 14:23, Blogger James B. said...

What has changed about Griffin? He has been remarkably consistent. Consistently dishonest, but consistent nevertheless.

 
At 14 September, 2011 14:32, Blogger GuitarBill said...

You have to remember, James, you're talking to the putz who believes that you can store terabytes of ANSYS simulation data on a floppy disk or a CD-ROM.

 
At 14 September, 2011 14:38, Blogger GuitarBill said...

The goat fucker squeals, "...It's just like opining that blacks are an inferior race based on your experience with a mentally retarded crack-head who wants to pump gas for you at the filling station."

Let me guess: That's the only job offer you've had in the last 6 years. Right, goat fucker?

And remember, cretin, I'm just askin' questions...

 
At 14 September, 2011 15:38, Blogger paul w said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 14 September, 2011 15:43, Blogger paul w said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 14 September, 2011 15:45, Blogger paul w said...

And that's why you should NEVER give the dangerous scumbags in the second group a platform for their lies.

GB, the only truther that ever comes here on a consistent basis is Brian, and that's because he (clearly) has a mental illness.

Who else comes here? Gold?

Two people, GB. So much for a 'platform'.

Personally, I would love truthers to come and debate here, but they are too gutless; it might shatter their comfortable delusion.

Yes, maybe the 'folks in the second group want to hang you by the neck and make an example of you', but, so what?

Let 'em rot in their own little desolate internet worlds.

Look, if a truther wants to come here, fine by me.

Just ignore the Brian's. Please.

 
At 14 September, 2011 16:04, Blogger Len said...

OT here but comments are closed on the previous post. There was nothing wrong with the SLC link in the AFP article.

 
At 14 September, 2011 16:13, Blogger GuitarBill said...

Paul, if it's any consolation, I agree with you.

In fact, I enjoy debating sincere troofers. On the other hand, I absolutely despise insincere troofers, for one reason, and one reason only: The constant repetition of proven falsehoods.

It's no secret that I don't suffer fools or liars. And Brian "goat fucker" Good's merry-go-round of long ago debunked propaganda is wearing thin.

Can't that idiot come up with something new? Or is he so one-dimensional that new material is beyond the realm of possibility?

In any case, point taken. Thanks.

 
At 14 September, 2011 17:42, Blogger paul w said...

Can't that idiot come up with something new?

GB, I wonder just what else can any truther come up with that's 'new'?

Where do they go from nano-thermite? Nano-elves?

Or is he so one-dimensional that new material is beyond the realm of possibility?

With Brian, maybe? Not exactly sure what his condition is. As for other truthers, how does one try to offer another perspective on delusional faith?

 
At 14 September, 2011 17:47, Blogger James B. said...

"There was nothing wrong with the SLC link in the AFP article."

D'oh! I misread it. Was in a hurry. Maybe I am biased from all that teasing I give my French coworker?

 
At 14 September, 2011 19:58, Blogger Ian said...

The inability of debunkers to recognize themselves in Swift's observation about unreasonable ideas is amusing.

My, such squealing!

Youse guys start with the belief that truthers are the dumbest people in the world, you invent your facts, and you seem to be incapable of recognizing that the bigoted wackos you delight in skewering bring guilt to the Jersey widows and the architects and engineers only in an association you've constructed out of nothing.

Let's see.....nope, I've read it ten times and it still doesn't resemble anything remotely like the English language.

Brian, maybe you should try to sniff less glue before you post here.

The distinction between MIHOP and LIHOP is trivial, they're both treason, as David Kubiak points out.

False. They're contradictory, but considering all the babbling you've done to desperately cling to many contradictory positions, it doesn't surprise me that you can't understand this.

And if Osama was a CIA asset, as Sibel Edmonds claims, then LIHOP is MIHOP-with-patsies even if the alleged hijackers actually were committed and enthusiastic terrorists as the government claims.

Yes, and if Willie Rodriguez were a deranged liar with homosexual fantasies, you could have slept with him by now.

So Brian, have the widows had their questions answered yet?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

 
At 14 September, 2011 20:52, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

And that's why you should NEVER give the dangerous scumbags in the second group a platform for their lies.

Respectfully, I have to disagree. One of the best ways to prove truthers stupid is to let them speak.

 
At 15 September, 2011 09:51, Blogger PhilBiker said...

RGT: "let them speak".... or type.

 
At 15 September, 2011 15:19, Blogger John Ruberry said...

Hey Pat...I tried to email you, but in case you didn't know, ThirdWaveDave is quite ill. John

 

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