Sunday, May 21, 2006

More Silencing of Dissent!

Over at the Loose Change Forums, that is. James and I had the amusing experience earlier this month of being challenged to post over there by several commenters on the blog, who no doubt assumed that we would shrink like the Wicked Witch of the West when doused with the water of truth.

I lasted about 7 posts before some Looser banned me for not answering his question about a sex with boys ring in the Reagan-era White House--no, I'm not kidding. James was also summarily kayoed. To their credit a couple of the Loose Change forum members griped about this and briefly it appeared that we would be reinstated. Fortunately hotter heads prevailed and we remain locked out of the "Skeptics" portion of their forum until August, when we will no doubt be asked to account for the USS Liberty.

Our guest poster today had the same result [my comments]:

A week or two ago it came to my attention that I got a crapload of hits from the Universal Pictures "United 93" message boards from a poster named 'jebb'. Apparently he was a fan of the comic because he linked Chronicles of Garas in his signature along with a huge "YARLY" owl image. I even got a few fun emails about it.

I don't know why he did that and to be honest, I don't care. But ..9/11, that's a big thing to me. I know it's strange that Canadian is interested in an attack done in the states. I see it as something that totally changed how the entire Western world looked at the Middle East and Islam. Before, not many people really cared about Israel or what was happening there. We were shown videos in schools about how Muslim women had to dress heavily to cover their faces in World Religion class, but otherwise, it was just another culture that we would never really get to experience or care about.

Then a fellow by the name of Osama Bin Laden decided to greet the western world by slamming planes into the two towers and Pentagon. Now everyone from the Western world diverted their gaze from domestic problems to the Middle East. Who were these people, and why did they attack us? Why did they hate us? And for the record, I'm not talking about every freaking Muslim here; just the crazy ones.

Conspiracy theories now show up on the internet, with Alex Jones finally quitting his day job and posting online radio shows to tell the world about the global elite ready to rape us, with the powers of Immigration and Feminism. Michael Moore compares Bush to Hitler, makes a few crappy documentaries, and gets rich. The new players on the scene? Three kids who made a video called "Loose Change 9/11", a film that is purportedly dedicated to the lives of those lost in 9/11 and exposes the truth.

I joined the Loose Change boards and debated with these people denying 9/11's official story, mainly asking questions as "why didn't this happen" if their theory is true. Logical questions, like if the WTC 7 was really bought down by bombs, the fire fighters and Larry Silverstein would be part of a multi-billion dollar scandal. Of course, I never really got a direct answer, just personal attacks. I spent two hours dicking around and found out that this morning that I was banned.

It saddens me to see that apparently intelligent people who live in one of the best countries, if not the best, actually believe their government would pull off such a thing. Not only that, but with every bit of education and help they get from society, they spit back at them. They will use small bits of evidence and twist those to their view, ignoring everything else. They claim to be skeptical and open-minded, but will not hear the other side. They claim to fight for freedom, but as you can see from my banning, that they don't endorse that either. The Loose Change 9/11 forums also have a "Skeptics" forum so they can move posts that disagree with their view so the other members don't need to view it.

Here is just a summary of some of the sources and "facts" in Loose Change, just so you get the idea on how poorly made and how fabricated this documentation really is. Some of these facts I also learn on the Loose Change forums.

- Grade 10 physics is good enough knowledge to make a judgment on 9/11
- Experts educated in their fields should not be trusted. Despite both private and public investigations were at the ground zero, they are "part of the coverup"
- Jews are bad
- American Free Press, a news source that is pretty much well-known for white supremacy and hating Jews, is a valid source of journalism. Loose Change documentation uses these guys often. In fact, one of the headlines stated in the newspaper they show at the video, says "Attack on Syria approved by Washington Warmongers". No bias eh?
- Jimmy Walter is a great source of information, despite having no expertise on the field.
- A message board post is credible source.
- Jeff King, an MIT electric engineer, is valued over a structual engineer's opinion (fun fact: No structual engineer said the buildings were bought down by bombs)
- NORAD is the air police and stood down on 9/11, even though not a single airline pilot or member of NORAD came forward and stated something was wrong after 9/11. Canada is in on 9/11 too.
- A simile ("As if there were bombs placed") is concrete evidence.
- All explosions are created by bombs.
- Rigging a huge building takes a few hours without no one noticing. ( - 30 story building takes four months)
- A bunch of high school kids can tell that there were bombs in the buildings, despite millions of witnesses that day. [And many structural engineers who disagree].
- A spokesperson has the same technical-know-how as an engineer.
- A Mexican mining engineer has a valid say when it comes to buildings coming down.

I could go on and on, but this is just some of the disinformation in Loose Change [and on the forums]. These people sicken me, because they would wait until destruction comes by, profit from it, and hide behind their 'truth movement'. Alex Jones, Michael Moore, and the members of Loose Change can't wait for something to big to happen so they can blame it on the government, while asking for donations to 'seek' the truth. They are nothing more than vultures. They plan on raiding the next 9/11 memorial in New York to heckle people who lost family members and friends there to 'tell them the truth'. If America had truly become a police state, these bastards wouldn't exist.

(Minor editing to conform to site style)

Amen, BK! BTW, he has a web-comic that those of you who are into Sword & Sorcery will enjoy. I'm an old Conan fan myself so this one is right up my alley.


At 21 May, 2006 15:21, Blogger nes718 said...

- Jews are bad

Correction, Zionists are bad.

At 21 May, 2006 15:40, Blogger Unknown said...

As I think everyone knows, my contention never been to say that Loose Change, the Loose Change Site, the politics at the Loose Change website, or the opinions or behavior of self-labeled 9/11 Truth advocates are flawless.

The more that Loose Change frauds, shortcomings, etc. can be pointed out is good as long as the points that are not debunked can remain on everyone's mind.

In addition, movies are movies. I challenge everyone to take the time to read Webster Tarpley's book, or David Ray Griffin's "9/11 Commission...." before you have any business saying that everything about 9/11 questions are just like the parts of Loose Change that you say are hooey.

At 21 May, 2006 15:52, Blogger Unknown said...

Here's a article that I would recommend to anybody to get a little perspective on where things are. It's more than a year old, but it cuts away from the furor over Loose Change and hopefully brings this topic where it can be considered more calmly.

Justice and 9-11 (

At 21 May, 2006 16:42, Blogger Unknown said...

Pat said in the post about starting to watch 911 Eyewitness, he didn't appreciate a big deal being made out of the "black helicopters". I appreciate that. I can understand why it seems like making something out of most likely nothing.

Here's three minutes video on youtube (originally from Cameraplanet) that shows a suspicious helicopter. Much more significant, we see evidence of thermate or thermite burning and melting steel befor the collapse.

At 21 May, 2006 16:43, Blogger Unknown said...


I've not seen evidence contrary to that about the Libery.

Israel had several coverup Commissions.

At 21 May, 2006 16:59, Blogger Unknown said...


"Israel did it" is a pretty poisonous thing to say. I don't think there is any consistent evidence that the State of Israel sponsored and carried out the whole operation.

I don't think you are putting that out, but I would say a uncomplicated assertion like that is offensive on many levels.

Now, there's another whole level someimes referred to as the Israeli Lobby in the US..... now you are getting warmer....

At 21 May, 2006 17:09, Blogger Unknown said...

2nd Post that quotes from a 9/11 Truth Email List (talking about Jim Fetzer of Scholars for 9/11 Truth):

I should say, in defense of Fetzer, that,
stylistically, he is an
extremely effective public speaker, dominates debates
well, and writes

I just question his strategic judgement and his use of
resources, precious assets and rare opportunities.

Why haven't we heard more about the (fairly likely
murder of one of his younger activist colleagues ?
Or has Fetzer been advised not to discuss this case
openly because it
might "frighten others away" from 9/11 even more ?
As to Fetzer's motives in all of this.....?
It really makes me gag to here him do his tap-dance
apologetics for
the rotten corrupt bloody-handed Democratic Party....
most of whose
top figures are fully complicit with these outrages.
Reminds me of those LaRouchies who also yap-yap around
the ankles of
any hack Democrat or passive union clerk .. while
side-stepping the Democratic Party's INSTITUTIONAL
COLLABORATION with the criminals of September 11th.

In interviews, Fetzer persistently implies that it is
all the work of
the nefarious Dick Cheney (sounds like he cribbed that
a bit from Mike
Ruppert's heavily promoted book).

Don't insult our intelligence, Prof. Fetzer.
The planning for 9/11 goes back much, much further
than the Bush
Why would you seek to obfuscate or minimize the role
of the
Clinton-crats in this ?
How do you characterize the bald-faced lying of
Madeline Albright on a
daily basis, as she goes around pimping her book
sales, propagating
the filthy mythology that Bin Laden and Al Qaeda did
9/11 ?

What about the Oklahama City bombing of the Murrah
Bldg., Prof. Fetzer
? Surely Prof. Fetzer would agree with Webster Tarley
that the OKC
event was an engineered false-flag event as well,
bearing features of
a continuous string of such operations.

To REALLY educate and enlighten the poor be-nighted
masses, the Sf9/11T should be LINKING 9/11 to a
systematic LONG-TERM
chain of such horrors ... perpetrated by a fairly
consistent group of
criminals and corrupt officials, in many countries;
and reliant on
near-total control of the media.
Surely, that would RE-CONTEXTUALIZE the significance
of 9/11 and place
it within an historically meaningful (hence
comprehensible) framework.

That should be Sf9/11T "mass educational" top
Banalizing 9/11 by placing it in historica (and
future) context.
How can they do that by spreading a false
understanding of things like
"war games" or "terror drills" ?

Or by helping to perpetuate dangerously fatal
illusions about the
reliability or leadership capacity of, effectively,
collaborators and
push-overs like Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, John
Kerry ...virtually
the entire United States Senate .. and just about
every Democrat in
the House, except for the possible exception of
Cynthia McKinney.

Fetzer is being more than disingenous when he boosts
fantasies about
"cleaning house" at Pennsylvania Ave., as the path to
justice for both
vicitms and the perps of 9/11.
He is peddling deadly illusions.
Perhaps he shares those illusions himself... ?
That would have to be willful self-deception wouldn't
it ?
Either way, no one can afford the risk of such poor
judgement ..
We already have one conspicuously dead "scholar for
9/11 truth".
I noticed that even Alex Jones was hesitant to
confront Fetzer on the
peddling of Democratic Party leadership as the path to

I grew up on the hard left, back in the 60s.
We were never the least bit afraid to finger Lyndon
Johnson and the
Democratic Party establishment for their bloody-handed
murder of young
Americans and Vietnamese in a war that profited
Johnson's corporate
sponsors, while bankrupting the US and wasting away
the best of our

If Fetzer is afraid to say it ... well I am not.
The Democratic Party, it's leadership, indeed all its
cadres ... bear
direct responsibiity for the perpetuation of the 9/11
hoax ....
in an atmosphere where polls increasingly indicate
that masses of
ordinary Democrats openly reject the government and
controlled media
manufactured myth.
You gutless and treasonous Democrats (and so-called
Progressives and
Greens) ran out of excuses a long time ago.
If you have remained silent for so long, you already
stand exposed as
cowards or fools.

I'll say so openly mysef, whether anyone else chooses
to, or not.

At 21 May, 2006 17:17, Blogger shawn said...

Correction, Zionists are bad.

And a vast majority of Jews are Zionists. Belief that your people should have their own nation isn't evil. If so, the Palestinians are evil. As are the Chinese. As are Americans. As are Germans. As are the British.

I would love to see a poll on how many Americans believe "Israel did it."

Not many. Something like 67 percent of Americans support Israel.

Now, there's another whole level someimes referred to as the Israeli Lobby in the US..... now you are getting warmer....

Don't trot out that antisemitic diabtribe masking itself as academic research.

At 21 May, 2006 17:20, Blogger shawn said...

Was it offensive when 9/11 was blamed on Arabs?

Uh a group of nineteen Arabs did do it.

Our news media was chock full of crap about the hijackers doing it to have themselves "72 virgins." Racist, demonizing stuff that made Arabs and the Islamic religion out to be vile and perverted.

Well, I sure as hell wouldn't subscribe to a religion which told me to kill all unbelievers in the holy text. We don't need to demonize them, they do it themselves. When cartoons are drawn they burn embassies and threaten to kill people.

Remember how many times you saw the videos of Palestinians celebrating?

Once. And why should we not see it? It only goes to show how little sanctity those people put on life. I don't dance in the street when I hear a Palestinian child died.

At 21 May, 2006 17:32, Blogger Chad said...

We demonize Arabs? I'm sorry, but they do a damn fine job of it themselves when they videotape the beheadings they carry out in the name of Allah.

Is this to say all Arabs are bad? Not at all. But a religion that has a habit of breeding this kind of muderous zealotry needs some serious bitch-smacking.

(Hey... if nesnyc can be anti-semitic, I'm gonna be anti-Islamic.)

Durka Durka! Mohammad Jihad!!

At 21 May, 2006 17:43, Blogger shawn said...

just put "dancing Israelis" in any search engine and you come up with the Israelis celebrating as they watched the twin towers come down.

You come up with the story nesnyc has been parroting. Never mind it isn't true.

Former Israeli PM Netanyahu's first reaction to 9/11 was that it was a good thing for US/Israel relations.

I wonder why he would say that...maybe because America would finally help them fight the Islamists? Seems a normal enough response to me.

The Palestinians celebrating was played many times and it was faked footage; you can find that story easily enough, too.

It wasn't faked, that's an oft-repeated myth now. I read and heard it often, mostly from pro-Palestine people trying to discredit anything that would show Palestinians being anything but helpless victims.

The really odd point about it is that news agencies went out to get that story in order to demonize Palestinians on 9/11.

Oh the media that's clearly pro-Palestine? Hell, the BBC just had an outside group look at their stories and found a clear bias.

Evidence that those 19 Arabs were on the planes, let alone hijacked them, is not very good. Couldn't convict in a court of law, for sure.

Except for having footage of them, calls made from the planes saying Arabs had hijacked the planes, etc. I'm pretty sure it did convict someone in a court of law, so you're wrong, hun!

There's an overwhelming amount of evidence to make the case, and saying there isn't doesn't make it true. I've never taken a law class in my life and I could win that case.

At 21 May, 2006 17:44, Blogger shawn said...

Some of those fellows are still alive but even if they were all dead, what does that prove?

No, they're not! That claim has been debunked countless times. People happen to have the same names, so ergo the people are still alive? Sorry, doesn't work, babe.

At 21 May, 2006 17:45, Blogger shawn said...

Very obviously planted "Arab" patsy.

Keep telling yourself that, hun.

At 21 May, 2006 17:48, Blogger Alex said...

That line of argument just amazes me.

The Muslim faith promises guaranteed entry to heaven, along with other rewards, to those who die while killing "infidels". But when we point that out, WE are "demonizing" them?

Palestinians celebrate in the streets after seing 3,000 Americans die, but when we show video of it, WE are the reacist ones?

You're one nutty lady Joan.

At 21 May, 2006 18:01, Blogger shawn said...

So wait, he is a patsy, so he is going to cheer about how shitty the americans are in court, than gets prison for life, then he says he was kidding.

Don't you get it, man? We'd use the most inept patsy in the history of humanity to make our case airtight! C'mon, don't you see the LOGIC?!

At 21 May, 2006 18:03, Blogger Chad said...

:::In this post, the role of Chad, normally played by himself, will be played by the bastard child of nesnyc, BG, and joan:::

How do you explain the confession tape than?


At 21 May, 2006 18:05, Blogger Chad said...


At 21 May, 2006 18:07, Blogger Chad said...


At 21 May, 2006 18:07, Blogger shawn said...

Rachel Corrie

Ahhh the ISM useful idiot. Stood in front of a pile of debris being cleared to get rid of gun running tunnels. Her death was her own fault.

You forget, Jenin? The media reported it as some massive massacre of Palestinians. Not until years later did I find out it was an Israeli action rooting out militants, and several civilians were killed because the militants hid among them.

At 21 May, 2006 18:09, Blogger shawn said...

The "dancing Israelis" story is true; look it up.

Looked it up again, oddly enough still the same conspiracy, anti-Israel, antisemitic websites as before. Not a real news source in the lot.

At 21 May, 2006 18:10, Blogger Chad said...


At 21 May, 2006 18:12, Blogger Alex said...

Who the hell is Natalie Halloway?

Frankly, I'm quite familiar with Rachel Corrie, mainly because when I first read about her I spent the next 15 minutes rolling on the floor laughing. Literaly braught me to tears.

At 21 May, 2006 18:13, Blogger shawn said...

Who the hell is Natalie Halloway?

Blond chick who got herself killed in Aruba and caused a major media brouhaha.

At 21 May, 2006 18:14, Blogger shawn said...

I continue to use “alleged” when referring to the hijackers because there is not a shred of evidence that there was a single Arab on any of the four flights.

Most non-Arabs don't continually say "Allahu ackbar" as they're crashing, either.

At 21 May, 2006 18:14, Blogger Alex said...


Heh. Nice finale Chad :) I was LOLing at that one, imagining you actually saying it.

At 21 May, 2006 18:17, Blogger Alex said...

"Blond chick who got herself killed in Aruba and caused a major media brouhaha."

Ohhhh. Yeah I remember that. I'm deffinitely more familiar with the Rachel Corrie incident though. Some chick getting killed on vacation in Aruba just doesn't concern me much. Feel bad for her family, but that's a regular occurence. On the other hand, a jew-hating retard proving that Darwin was correct is a LOT more interesting.

At 21 May, 2006 18:17, Blogger Chad said...

Joan honey? I think you (and BG and nesnyc) could stand to benefit from a re-enactment of that scene from Airplane! (ironic?) where the woman (you) is freaking out on the flight and people line up down the isle to smack some sense into her.

And just so I can beat Shawn to it, I already call "Guy With Baseball Bat".

At 21 May, 2006 18:19, Blogger shawn said...

The only way to remove Rachel from a pile of debris was to kill her?

Let's see she stands in front of a bulldozer, where the driver CAN'T EVEN SEE HER and it's his fault that she got run over? He obviously didn't just run over some chick on purpose. She was a useful idiot for the Fatah terrorist regime. The fact that these peace protestors always go on the wrong side is laughable.

At 21 May, 2006 18:20, Blogger shawn said...

And just so I can beat Shawn to it, I already call "Guy With Baseball Bat".

Damn you!

At 21 May, 2006 18:23, Blogger Alex said...

hehe. funny thing. here's the results from google search:

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,840,000 for rachel corrie. (0.20 seconds)

Results 1 - 10 of about 64,000 for Natalie Halloway. (0.22 seconds)

Now which one of them do YOU think got more attention? Hrm?

At 21 May, 2006 18:26, Blogger shawn said...

If someone wanted to make you think they were Arabs, wouldn't they say "Allahu Akbar?"

Circular logic. Next.

At 21 May, 2006 18:26, Blogger Alex said...

Whoops, my bad, turns ou her name is actually spelled "Natalee Holloway".

In which case, there's 871,000 hits for her name.

And Rachel corrie still gets 1.8 million.

At 21 May, 2006 18:27, Blogger shawn said...

And no, the average American would not recognize the phrase "Allahu ackbar".

Unless they thought you were referencing the Kanye West song "Heard 'Em Say".

At 21 May, 2006 18:29, Blogger shawn said...

If there was even a week's worth of Greta van Susterens and Rita Cosby shows and Larry King shows on Rachel Corrie, the American people would demand a cut-off of aid to Israel and you know it.

I think in terms of emotional impact, one naive, politically idiotic girl's death is an absolute joke compared to the Holocaust. Not to mention it was her fault she died.

At 21 May, 2006 18:30, Blogger Chad said...

::: Moves up a spot in line. Taps baseball bat in palm :::

At 21 May, 2006 18:32, Blogger Chad said...

Guys, I apologize for not contributing anything substantial to the "debate" tonight, but in all honesty, we know how fruitless it is to try to talk any sense into these folk.

I have therefore resorted to making fun of them.

At 21 May, 2006 18:33, Blogger Alex said...

What would those shows look like exactly? And what would they say?

"This innocent little american girl, who liked to light american flags on fire while hanging out with palestinian terrorists, flew all the way to Israel, drove out to palestine, found herself some demolition work in progress, stood in front of a moving bulldozer, and got flattened. Clearly the whole thing was a Zionist conspiracy."

I don't know, I can't see that playing very well on Operah.

At 21 May, 2006 18:37, Blogger shawn said...

A lovely woman.

At 21 May, 2006 18:40, Blogger shawn said...

You want to believe Rachel Corrie deserved to die the same way you want to believe Arabs did 9/11 despite the lack of evidence.

I never said she deserved it, she didn't. But it was her fault.

I didn't know they changed the definition of 'lack' to 'abundance'.

At 21 May, 2006 18:48, Blogger shawn said...

At 21 May, 2006 18:48, Blogger shawn said...


At 21 May, 2006 18:49, Blogger Chad said...

Hey crazy? Google "Atta plane ticket" and see if you get any hits.

Thanks babe.

At 21 May, 2006 18:53, Blogger Chad said...

Shawn, can you use TinyURL for that link?

At 21 May, 2006 18:56, Blogger shawn said...

At 21 May, 2006 18:57, Blogger shawn said...


At 21 May, 2006 19:03, Blogger shawn said...

So they went to Boston and DISAPPEARED? I'm from Boston, a couple Arabs wouldn't just blend in with the crowd.

At 21 May, 2006 19:05, Blogger Alex said...

You can use actual links on this blog Shawn. Do this:

<A HREF="">Name of Article</A>

And it'll look like this:

Name of Article

And forgive me if you already know HTML :)

At 21 May, 2006 19:07, Blogger shawn said...

There's no proof of any of the "19 hijackers" buying plane tickes in the msnbc link, either. Somebody saying he checked Mohammed Atta in is pretty lousy "proof" when there should be so much.

Here's where you use critical thinking. A bunch of Arabs go into Washington and Boston and happen to disappear on the same day a number of planes are hijacked and crashed by Arabs. So either they disappeared off the face of the Earth or they were the ones who hijacked the planes.

The fact he was going into Boston showed he had plane tickets, by the way.

At 21 May, 2006 19:12, Blogger shawn said...

The rental car with a treasure trove of documents was found at Logan Airport, Boston. But Atta is supposed to have flown out of Portland. How did he get from Boston to Portland?

First, source.

then, I'll go ask a first person eyewitness. My dad was the head of Customs (now Homeland Security) in Boston on that day and didn't have a day off for months afterwards.

At 21 May, 2006 19:12, Blogger Chad said...

Shawn, not true at all. I often times enjoy going to JFK and/or LaGuardia to check myself onto a flight I haven't purchased a ticket for. It helps pass the time on weekends I'm short on cash, and messing with with ticketing agents is a real hoot.

"You need a ticket sir."

"I don't need no stinkin' ticket bitch! Stop profiling me! Rape! Rape!"

Security normally starts to chase me after that, but I just slip on my magic ring and disappear.

At 21 May, 2006 19:15, Blogger shawn said...

Ha! No, I don't think you use "critical thinking" rather than hard evidence to find the truth about 9/11 if you really want to know the truth.

Oh, it doesn't matter what you think. I do use it. So do you not believe anything at all unless you have every single shred of evidence with no holes whatsoever?

Guess you don't subscribe to anything Newton, Einstein, or Darwin cooked up.

At 21 May, 2006 19:16, Blogger Chad said...

Joan, honey baby crazy. I could be WAY off base here, but I'm thinking the other hijackers who weren't coming from Portland probably needed a way to get to Logan Airport, and I'm guessing (again, I'm just spitballing here) that they may have rented a car.

At 21 May, 2006 19:26, Blogger shawn said...

Well, thats how we ended up stuck in this idiotic Iraq War thats going to cost us over a trillion dollars and God knows how many American and Iraqi lives and our prestige around the world: critical thinking instead of hard evidence.

Our "prestige" never existed. All the countries that hated us now, hated us then. Nobody likes the top dog.

But when the almost definite isolationist actions occur under the next administration or the one following, we'll all be sorry. That's how the world wars happened.

At 21 May, 2006 19:27, Blogger shawn said...

Also, excellent use of the red herring logical fallacy. Iraq has nothing to do with our discussion.

At 21 May, 2006 19:29, Blogger Alex said...

Yeah, I'm hoping beyond all hope that the republicans get elected again in 2008. I'm Canadian so it's not like I normaly play partisan politics...but the US...and the world...need another administration which will have the intestinal fortitude to continue with the current operations. If the dems take the whitehouse in 2008, I'm gonna start getting ready for WW3.

At 21 May, 2006 19:42, Blogger Alex said...

I tried. I'm actually in the Canadian military, but they decided to keep me home to teach new recruits (think Drill Sgt) instead of sending me to Afghanistan. See, ever since 9/11 we've been expanding like mad, so they need all the good instructors they can get their hands on.

Anyway, I didn't like that idea, so I tried to clear out and join the Marines instead. No joy. They offered me a good contract, and offered to start me as an E4, but I'd have to get a green card in order to be able to sign up. I briefly even contemplated marrying a girl I know in New York just so I could get the green card, but while I'd love to join the Marines, marriage is a much more dangerous commitment.

At 21 May, 2006 19:49, Blogger shawn said...

actually, if "critical thinking" unsupported by hard evidence is worth anything in the 9/11, one would be drawn to the PNAC "New Pearl Harbor" to examine 9/11.

I never said unsupported by evidence. That's a strawman.

Right, but just reading that and assuming it has to do with 9/11 is a logical fallacy called post hoc, ergo not critical thinking.

At 21 May, 2006 19:57, Blogger shawn said...

I guess they solve murders by "post hoc" thinking? Like, who has a motive would be the likely suspect.

You can't just use motive to solve a case. If you tried that, you'd be laughed out of a courtroom.

At 21 May, 2006 19:58, Blogger Alex said...

You have no idea what you're talking about Joan. SOME soldiers join because it helps them get their citizenship sooner. That's MUCH different than joining to get a green card.

And before you try telling me again that I'm wrong, you should be aware that I spoke to something like 20 recruiters in 12 different states. I eventually even got in contact with a couple senators (including Sen. Clinton just for fun) to see if they'd be willing to sponsor a bill allowing non-residents in closely allied countrie to apply for and work in the US military. So I think I'm a little better informed in this respect than you are.

At 21 May, 2006 19:58, Blogger shawn said...

Here's how your thinking would go:

I said to a friend that I'd love to kill a dumb celebrity.

Paris Hilton dies.

I'm arrested (even though I'm on the other coast and the death appears to be natural) and convicted of the crime.

At 21 May, 2006 20:05, Blogger Alex said...

"they want to be martyrs to get 72 virgins" is a joke Joan. We all understand that the situation is a lot more involved than that. Only a moron would beleive that their ONLY motivation was 72 virgins in heaven. But at the same time, that was at least part of the motivation for some of them. It's a joke loosely anchored in reality.

At 21 May, 2006 20:07, Blogger shawn said...

Of course, you always look at motive and the "19 arab hijackers" seem to have no motive that makes any sense.

How about attacking their enemy? Attempting to bring him to his knees?

Did some of the hijackers think that they'd be gifted in Paradise? Most likely.

Did others see this as a global war between Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb, and that this was the only way they could actually attack the enemy on their home turf? Certainly.

And if you think it's ridiculous that religious conviction could drive someone to insane levels of slaughter, look up the Crusades.

At 21 May, 2006 20:22, Blogger Alex said...

"There are thousands of non citizens in the US armed forces. What did they do that you couldn't do?"

You really are retarded eh?

Let me lay it out for you:

"non-citizen" does NOT equal "no-green-card"

You can have a green card, but it won't make you a citizen. Therefore the fact that there may be thousands of "non-citizens" doesn't prove there's any who don't have green cards. It just means they're not citizens.

And yes, I tried to get a green-card. I have an automatic handicap because I'm white and from a first world country. It's much easier to get a green card if you're a refugee.

If I had a decent gauranteed job in the US, and the owner was willing to sponsor me, I could maybe get a green card. Unfortiunately, the federal government can't sponsor me, even though they're offering me a job.

Finally, I could get married to get a green card. And I explained that already.

In the end, no, I couldn't get a fucking green card. And yes, I would go fight in Iraq or Afghanistan in a heartbeat. I have about 20 friends in Iraq right now, and another 30 in Afghanistan. I'd love to be able to stand beside them.

And then you follow with this jem:

"Yes, they were so religious they'd die for it but they frequented lap dancers. "

Now I KNOW you're retarded. Islaam forgives any indescretion in life as long as you die killing infidels. So you've got 19 men who are repressed and sexualy frustrated due to their upbringing, who now all of a sudden can do ANYTHING THEY WANT and still get into heaven.

Well, that's a no brainer, eh?

And since I now know you're retarded and that this is going nowhere, I'm signing off and going to sleep. Try taking off your tinfoil helmet when you go to sleep tonight, it may help.

At 21 May, 2006 20:33, Blogger shawn said...

Yes, they were so religious they'd die for it but they frequented lap dancers.

And Osama and various religious leaders wear watches and rings.

These motives make no sense strategically, IMO, but the logical starting point would be means, motive and opportunity.

Nor did the Holocaust. In fact, it actually was strategically unsound. Also, al Qaeda (or any group of terrorists) attacking us is strategically unsound. They've lost thousands of their people and most of their higher ups. Ideology goes a long way.

At 21 May, 2006 21:36, Blogger Unknown said...


Yes, it was offensive to blame 9/11 on bin Laden and most Saudi hijackers.

It's offensive to point any direction without probable cause.

At 21 May, 2006 21:40, Blogger Unknown said...

I'm catching up.

Responding to "confessions" by the guilty, I agree with Joan in general.

Based on the evidence I've reviewed, I find the probability that all the videos and audios that have been claimed to be by bin Laden or other were authentic is near zero.

Anyone is welcome to disagree, but this is the last thing I want to argue about for now.

At 21 May, 2006 21:45, Blogger Unknown said...


Addressing Joan as "honey baby crazy" is the most offensive thing I've seen you do so far, and I've believed you were behaving pretty scummy before.

At 21 May, 2006 22:28, Blogger James B. said...

Based on the evidence I've reviewed, I find the probability that all the videos and audios that have been claimed to be by bin Laden or other were authentic is near zero.

And what exactly is your expertise in the Arabic language, Islamic culture, and Osama bin Laden?

At 22 May, 2006 01:27, Blogger nes718 said...

Now I KNOW you're retarded. Islaam forgives any indescretion in life as long as you die killing infidels. So you've got 19 men who are repressed and sexualy frustrated due to their upbringing, who now all of a sudden can do ANYTHING THEY WANT and still get into heaven.

Well, that's a no brainer, eh?

Yep. 100% unadulterated Zionist induced propaganda.

At 22 May, 2006 01:33, Blogger nes718 said...

And what exactly is your expertise in the Arabic language, Islamic culture, and Osama bin Laden?

Tim Osman is as Islamic as Bush and apart from Islamic culture.

At 22 May, 2006 04:31, Blogger Chad said...

Addressing Joan as "honey baby crazy" is the most offensive thing I've seen you do so far...

Really?? Well while I'm sure Joan appreciates the effort of you becoming her knight in shining armor and riding to her rescue, I have a hunch she's capable of sticking up for herself.

And wow that's some very thin skin you have there BG.

At 22 May, 2006 08:24, Blogger Alex said...

"Alex, you seem very defensive. Basically, you're sitting in a comfortable chair in front of a computer like the rest of us while the war you support is killing little children every day with no end in sight."

You dumb fucking cunt. The people who WE ARE KILLING are the ones "killing little children every day". THAT is why we're THERE. What the fuck is your problem anyway? You think the world should revolve around you and your ideas? Well yeah, you're so fucking dense that it probably should, but guess what babe, it doesn't. You have absolutely no CLUE what the rest of the world is like. I do. While I may not have had the chance to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, I HAVE worked in other countries, so I know full well just how fucked up and depraved human beings can become. I've been to countries where thieves would routinely beat the living crap out of innocent individuals, and then leave them by the side of the road, waiting for a vehicle to stop so they could car-jack it. That's in a country that's technicaly at peace Joan. Want to hear about Iraq and Afghanistan? One of the soldiers I trained corresponds with me on an almost daily basis. One day while driving along he had a little girl run out in front of his convoy. Turns out she'd found an IED and was trying to show them. Unfortiunately they only figured that out after her body went sailing past his window. Or how about one of my American buddies, who had to go through what is probably THE most most traumatizing experience I've ever heard of, when his stryker got stopped by a crowd of kids. Turns out the "insurgents" had paid the kids to stand there and block the road. When the IED went off, not only did it damage the vehicle and hurt some of the soldiers, it killed 12 children and wounded a handfull more. The WAR isn't killing these kids Joan. The bloodthirsty, remorseless savages who we are fighting are the ones killing them. But the good news Joan is that there is an "end in sight". Bosnia took us 13 years before we could pull out. Iraq is turning around at roughly the same pace. Afghanistan is a little slower, but once the ING is capable of taking over most of the operations in Iraq, hopefuly more troops will be redirected to Afghanistan. All in all, the war's going quite well thanks. If you care so much about the dying children, pick up a rifle and help us hunt down their killers.

At 22 May, 2006 09:59, Blogger James B. said...

OK guys, I know these people are frustrating, but try to keep the profanity to a minimum. I don't want to have to go deleting posts.

The video wasn't found in a cave btw, it was found in a house in Jalalabad. If you are going to claim something is a lie, at least get the known facts right.

At 22 May, 2006 10:47, Blogger nes718 said...

You dumb fucking cunt.

Typical insecure male. No wonder he believes the US propaganda. Totally invalidates anything this guy is saying.

At 22 May, 2006 10:51, Blogger nes718 said...

OK guys, I know these people are frustrating, but try to keep the profanity to a minimum. I don't want to have to go deleting posts.

If you notice only the supporters of the official conspiracy get out of line. I feel this is indicative of a weak and why they are predisposed to believe and crap the government spews out. I say, let them have their little tantrums; it only shows how the wheels of logic are really turning in their minds. Blind anger blinds rationality.

At 22 May, 2006 10:54, Blogger nes718 said...

Mossad also knew of the attacks, I don't see the US carpet-bombing Tel-Aviv on my TV screen.

Don't forget, the police arrested 5 dancing Israelis on 9/11 but later mysteriously let them go.

At 22 May, 2006 11:10, Blogger Chad said...

Nesnyc, the reason you don't get frustrated and riled up is because you're too stupid to realize when you're wrong.

It's like an adult trying to have reasoned discourse with a four-year old with you people (with you people being the four year olds - just so we're clear).

I can't speak for Alex, but I know the only reason I've gotten frustrated with you people is because this forum doesn't allow me to literally beat some sense into you.

At 22 May, 2006 11:17, Blogger Chad said...

Another aspect of the tension is that those of us who get frustrated are constrained by facts and reality when making our arguments.

If something doesn't fit your theory or isn't to your liking, you CTers are free to invent whatever you need to make it plausible in your mind.

I now know exactly what it's like arguing with a room full of mental patients.

So you can go kiss my ass with a pack of thermite or a cruise missle or some oxygen starved fires or some evil movie critics or some psy-ops helicopters or some controlled demolitions or mock up planes or a harem of damn dirty JOOOOS for all I care.

Doesn't make you any less of a moron.

At 22 May, 2006 16:58, Blogger Alex said...

It's not so much the frustration that pisses me off so much as the ego-trips and the sheer lack of respect. Joan suggesting that we're all a bunch of baby-killing savages was way over the top. The rest of the retards don't really anger me much, although occasionaly I go from being simply amazed that someone can have so much blind faith in their own delusions, to being rather annoyed that I can't beat some sense into them.

At 22 May, 2006 17:53, Blogger shawn said...

shawn, I don't know what the Holocaust has to do with anything in the 9/11 context. Its over 60 years ago. Comparing Hitler running Germany to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan - I don't get the point. I do think other historical events are relevant, though, like the October Surprise and the Iran Contra arms for hostages because of the multi-layered deception and motives.

October surprise isn't a specific event, hun. It refers to any event that comes out before an election to gain support for your side.

I know you're a moron, so I have to spell this out. You said it was strategically unsound for al-Qaeda to attack us. I then used probably the most famous and largest example of strategic unsoundness in history. I was making the point that ideology, rather than strategy, carries a long way.

At 26 May, 2006 11:18, Blogger Alex said...

"get her name right, not spell it so wrong it sways things your way."

Yeah, thanks asshole, maybe you missed the part where I said:

Whoops, my bad, turns ou her name is actually spelled "Natalee Holloway".

In which case, there's 871,000 hits for her name.

And Rachel corrie still gets 1.8 million.

It helps to read down to the end of the thread sometimes.

"but atleast in one situation she was standing up for somthing, the other was killed cause she was drunk an ignorent in a country she knew shit about, there for a party where she could slut it out without her parents finding out...."

Wow, you must not be getting laid much. Anyway, the way I see it, one deliberately threw herself in front of a moving bulldozer, thereby proving darwin was right, while the other one ended up the unwilling victim of a criminal while trying to have a good time. It takes a truly special kind of psycopath to see it any other way.

"the only people that know anything are the ones that can admit they know nothing"

Great, then shut the fuck up and go away.


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