Friday, June 23, 2006

Towards a Taxonomy of the CT Class

Anybody ever put together a guide to all the people? Not so much for the purposes of rounding them all up in our special neocon prisons, you understand (as useful as that might be), but just so we can understand who believes what conspiracy, or if they don't endorse a specific version, they're just "asking questions", then which questions?

We could come up with an easy taxonomy on the CTers. Although the possibilities seem endless, they're fairly finite.

1. Overarching Plot:

a. 19 Hijackers controlled by Osama Bin Laden (Official Theory)
b. 19 Hijackers controlled by Osama Bin Laden and allowed to operate the 9-11 mission by persons in the US government. (LIHOP)
c. Plot perpetrated by US government, means indeterminate. (MIHOP)

2. World Trade Center 1 (North Tower): Attack

a. Hit by American Airlines Flight #11, a 767.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Not hit by a plane.

3. World Trade Center 2 (South Tower): Attack

a. Hit by United Airlines Flight #175, a 767.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Not hit by a plane.

4. Pentagon: Attack

a. Hit by American Airlines Flight 77, a 757.
b. Hit by another plane.
c. Not hit by a plane.

5. Flight 93

a. Crashed in Shanksville, PA.
b. Shot down.
c. Landed elsewhere.

6. WTC 1,2: Collapse

a. Structural failure due to impact and fires.
b. Controlled demolition.
c. Other cause.

7. WTC 7: Collapse

a. Structural failure due to impact of collapsing building and fires
b. Controlled demolition.
c. Other cause.

8. Who's really behind it

a. Al Qaeda
b. PNAC/Neocons/Zionists
c. Other people

I think that largely covers it, except for one addition to each list:

d. Refuses to disclose/discuss

We all know this one. "We don't know what happened, we're just asking questions." I could add a question about what happened to all the passengers on the planes if they were not used in the crashes, but most of the CTers know enough to confess that they don't know.

I tried to make the categories a little loose so that the CTers are easily categorized. In all cases, the Official Theory is shown as "a" so that we know lots of "a"s indicates a general agreement with the official theory and a lack of "a"s indicates a general disagreement.

You are welcome to use general logic to establish a position on a particular theory by a CTer, but please indicate that logic so others can check.

Loose Change grades out the following:

1. c
2. d (however it does appear to rule out a)
3. d (however it does appear to rule out a)
4. d (however it does appear to rule out a)
5. c
6. b
7. b
8. b

In the cases of the three planes which hit the buildings, (2-4), the Loosers clearly do not believe any of those are the passenger planes, so we can rule out a.

Some of the Truthers will grade out with all "d"s; these are the folks who are really "just asking questions". Professor Stephen Jones? All "d"s I suspect except for 6 and maybe 7 being "b".

41 Comments:

At 23 June, 2006 09:18, Blogger nesNYC said...

I don't there is a need for all this mumbo-jumbo. Just take in all the fact surrounding these incidences and make up your own mind, keep it simple.

 
At 23 June, 2006 10:13, Blogger undense said...

I don't there is a need for all this mumbo-jumbo. Just take in all the fact surrounding these incidences and make up your own mind, keep it simple.

And, when keeping it simple, don't forget the JOOS!

 
At 23 June, 2006 10:25, Blogger nesNYC said...

And, when keeping it simple, don't forget the JOOS!

Zionists!

 
At 23 June, 2006 10:47, Blogger Alex said...

Yep, blaming it on the JOOOOS sure is simple....




sim·ple (sĭm'pəl) pronunciation
adj., -pler, -plest.

1. Having or composed of only one thing, element, or part. See synonyms at pure.
2. Not involved or complicated; easy: a simple task. See synonyms at easy.
3. Being without additions or modifications; mere: a simple “yes” or “no.”
4. Having little or no ornamentation; not embellished or adorned: a simple dress.
5. Not elaborate, elegant, or luxurious. See synonyms at plain.
6. Unassuming or unpretentious; not affected.
7.
1. Having or manifesting little sense or intelligence.
2. Uneducated; ignorant.
3. Unworldly or unsophisticated. See synonyms at naive.

8. Not guileful or deceitful; sincere.
9. Humble or lowly in condition or rank: a simple woodcutter.
10. Ordinary or common: a simple head cold.
11.
1. Being a fundamental or rudimentary element; basic.
2. Not important or significant; trivial.
12. Biology. Having no divisions or branches; not compound: a simple leaf; a simple eye or lens.
13. Music. Being without figuration or elaboration: a simple tone.

 
At 23 June, 2006 11:18, Blogger nesNYC said...

Why do we believe Zionists
are the masterminds
of the September 11 attack?
Let us count the reasons...

 
At 23 June, 2006 11:33, Blogger Abby Scott said...

nutjobby job.

 
At 23 June, 2006 12:00, Blogger apathoid said...

What the hell is a Zionist anyways? Its one of those people from the Matrix movies, right???

 
At 23 June, 2006 12:09, Blogger nesNYC said...

What the hell is a Zionist anyways? Its one of those people from the Matrix movies, right???

In the Matrix movies, the people of Zion are the good guys. In real life, the Zionists leadership are the keepers of the Matrix of evil.

 
At 23 June, 2006 12:33, Blogger apathoid said...

nesnyc said
Good guys in real life, the Zionists.

The people of Zion are the good guys


How's that for some a la Moore/Avery editing !!!!!!!

I got NESnyc to say Zionists are good guys! Twice !

 
At 23 June, 2006 12:37, Blogger Alex said...

A Zionist is anyone who beleives that Israel exists. In other words, about 80% of the world. That's where things start to break down. Insync there seems to think that anyone who isn't in denial about the existance of Israel is somehow connected to a plot to control the world. Even my 12 year old sister can point out Israel on a map, so I geuss she's part of the Master Plan too.

 
At 23 June, 2006 12:41, Blogger apathoid said...

A Zionist is anyone who beleives that Israel exists. In other words, about 80% of the world

I would say that N'Sync probably thinks that 80% of "Truth" movement are Zionists. I wonder what his ballpark percentage for the world is..

 
At 23 June, 2006 14:01, Blogger nesNYC said...

How's that for some a la Moore/Avery editing !!!!!!!

VERY FUCKIN good! Looks just like the NIST report ;)

 
At 23 June, 2006 14:03, Blogger nesNYC said...

A Zionist is anyone who beleives that Israel exists.

Amerikkkan ignorance shining loud and clear there!

 
At 23 June, 2006 16:18, Blogger Scott said...

I think I'm A, B, and D at the same time.

From research and seeing the permanent bases in Iraq first hand, I feel that there is motivation for an inside job, but the evidence they present doesn't necessarily connect or prove it.

And I wish they would drop some of the most crazy theories like cruise missiles, staged plane parts just because they are small enough to be carried, computerized phone calls, and no dead bodies in PA. Their over the top speculation mixed with fact ruins their message of "Ask Questions", which is a decent stance. Prime candidates for the Church of Scientology.

It's not fair to all everyone who asks questions a CTer, just because other people who ask questions speculate too much on ideas with little base.

 
At 23 June, 2006 16:20, Blogger shawn said...

Amerikkkan ignorance shining loud and clear there!

A Zionist is someone whom believes that Jews have a right to self-determination. That's not evil in any sense of the word.

 
At 23 June, 2006 18:43, Blogger JoanBasil said...

I think people watch Loose Change and make up their own minds what they agree with and what they don't.

Regarding the State of Israel:

(1) Its a much better suspect for being the prime mover behind 9/11 than someone in a cave in Afghanistan trying to provoke the US to bomb Arab countries. Israel is a main beneficiary of 9/11; they had dozens of spies in the US at the time, including many spies trained in explosives; they've attacked the US before; they have betrayed their US benefactor many times; they know they will be protected by the US government and the US media no matter what they do; they have lots of insider contacts to "analyze" our civilian aviation system; they have done false flag operations in the past, etc. etc. Israel is a top suspect by any logical measure. It was very important to blame Arabs very quickly, especially after the dancing Israelis got picked up, and boy did our government and media do just that. Never mind that it doesn't make sense to put your will in your checked luggage when you plan to use that plane to commit suicide. How convenient to find that "Rosetta stone" of evidence, and the other piece of luggage left in the rental car.

2. Regarding the existence of the State of Israel: Its almost 60 years and things keep getting worse, not better. We've been bribing that despot in Egypt over $2 billion/year for almost 30 years now; we have the US committed with over 100,000 troops in the Middle East and no way out because the Israel Lobby wanted that war; we have our own elected government officials so corrupted by the lust for/fear of Israel lobby campaign money that not one of them has the integrity to demand an independent investigation when Israel kills an American girl with a bulldozer. And so on. Where's it going? I agree with that guy from Neptune, NJ who called in to Mearsheimer/Walt on C-Span this morning: Give every Israeli some money and let them move to the US. It'd be a lot cheaper and theres plenty of them here already; I meet lots of Israelis all the time. They'll be fine here in the US.

 
At 23 June, 2006 19:22, Blogger nesNYC said...

A Zionist is someone whom believes that Jews have a right to self-determination. That's not evil in any sense of the word.

Yet more distortions. No wonder you guys haven't a clue.

 
At 23 June, 2006 19:24, Blogger default.xbe said...

ok, so whats your definiton of a zionist? and try not to use the world "supervillian"

 
At 23 June, 2006 19:36, Blogger nesNYC said...

We've been bribing that despot in Egypt over $2 billion/year for almost 30 years now;

Here's the fact that people don't like to admit. Fact is, when Israel has run its course, it will be purged like flushing a turd down the toilet of history. Egypt isn't the only Arab country getting US aid. Saudi Arabia also has modern US fighters for a day in the near future where the Zionists Jews will meet their demise. Then there is the Pakistani wild card, the Zionists, in their greed and blind ambition, can't see how utterly surrounded they are.

According to Pike's Letter to Mazzini, 1871:

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

If any of you are Jewish, or know someone who is, you should inform them that "Israel" is targeted for destruction, eventually. For it was written, for it shall be done.

 
At 23 June, 2006 19:48, Blogger nesNYC said...

ok, so whats your definiton of a zionist? and try not to use the world "supervillian"

Zionism is a political movement to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Basically, it is the forced right of return of the Jews in Diaspora by force and against scripture. Zionism isn't exclusive to Jews in that Evangelical Christians believe by returning the Jews to Palestine and establishing the State of Israel, it will create the rapture and therefore the second coming of Christ. That’s why there are Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists.

Zionism has it’s roots primarily in the teachings of two false profits who are:

Shabbati Zevi
Jacob Frank

The above mission of these two men is basically this:

Zevi:
as the true Messianic redeemer designated by God to overthrow the governments of the nations and to restore the kingdom of Israel.

Jacob Frank is supposedly the second coming of Zevi.

The Rothschild family is instrumental in funding early Zionists leadership and influential in getting the British to acquiesce to Zionist demands.

If you want to learn the true story of Zionism, I suggest you read the online book by Ralph Schoenman called, The Hidden History of Zionism.

 
At 23 June, 2006 20:51, Blogger nesNYC said...

Give every Israeli some money and let them move to the US. It'd be a lot cheaper and theres plenty of them here already; I meet lots of Israelis all the time. They'll be fine here in the US.

I agree! I live in Brooklyn right in between Hasidic Williamsburg and Orthodox Crown Heights. I say disband Israel peacefully, give it all back to the Arabs and even Jews that don't want to establish a state there. Give them huge chunks of land in the US that are prime and truly the land of milk and honey. But then again, America is the true Israel and the "Powers that be" won't let the Jews have it and is another reason why they created the distraction also known as "Israel."

But I suspect the only reason why they were intentionally put in harms way is because it is all part of a greater construct by the ruling global oligarchy to materialize a world conflict and in the ensuing chaos, destroy the Jews along with the Muslims. I feel the Jews will eventually build Solomon's temple over the Temple Mount and may even Nuke Mecca. If those events come to fruition, and many have predicted they will, the writing will then be on the wall for the Jews not only in Israel, but world wide for instigating these wars. Everyone in the world knows who is pulling Americas strings; it's only a matter of time until the Americans will be awakened to this fact. Things will not end pretty for Israel or Jews in general.

 
At 23 June, 2006 23:06, Blogger shawn said...

Zionism is a political movement to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Basically, it is the forced right of return of the Jews in Diaspora by force and against scripture. Zionism isn't exclusive to Jews in that Evangelical Christians believe by returning the Jews to Palestine and establishing the State of Israel, it will create the rapture and therefore the second coming of Christ. That’s why there are Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists.


Again, Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to self-determination. Yours is actually a distortion, as the basic ideal says nothing of Palestine.

(1) Its a much better suspect for being the prime mover behind 9/11 than someone in a cave in Afghanistan trying to provoke the US to bomb Arab countries.

I'm baffled how people can continually post such laughable comments. So Israel, our ally, has more reason to attack us than a man who has ordered attacks against American and allied targets? Even when the American retaliation causes worldwide condemnation and violence against Israel to escalate?

 
At 23 June, 2006 23:10, Blogger shawn said...

I do understand that Palestine was eventually chosen as the site for this homeland (and you tend to forget that there was nobody there until Jews started moving in and creating infrastructure).

Give it back to the Arabs? They didn't move in there till it was all fixed up and worth living in.

 
At 23 June, 2006 23:12, Blogger jackhanyes said...

Has anyone else notice when someone around here starts making strong points contrary to what Shawn, Alex, james, undense, and others OS'er believe they run for the hill or resorts to name calling and mockery?

I have.

 
At 23 June, 2006 23:32, Blogger jackhanyes said...

Again, Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to self-determination. Yours is actually a distortion, as the basic ideal says nothing of Palestine.

The goal of Zionism is to return the Jews to their "homeland" to bring on the end times. The return of the jew is at the start of the end times. Do you not know the Bible?

Palestine is implied because Palestine just happens to be what is consider to be the Jewish homeland. Did you totaly forget bibical histroy?

Oh yeah, you think it's just a book written by 60+ men over 5000 years on a way to live life.

 
At 23 June, 2006 23:49, Blogger default.xbe said...

anyone ever notice how anyone who wants the jews to have their own nation is a zionist who only wants it to "bring armageddon" as opposed to someone who just thinks they deserve their own land?

i have

 
At 24 June, 2006 00:12, Blogger nesNYC said...

Again, Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to self-determination. Yours is actually a distortion, as the basic ideal says nothing of Palestine.

You are terribly mistaken here and is why none of this makes any sense to you.

Look HERE to see Zionism in all its glory and how it cons Americans such as yourself to support it.

Even Wiki says you're wrong:

Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states have existed up to the 2nd century.

 
At 24 June, 2006 00:17, Blogger nesNYC said...

anyone ever notice how anyone who wants the jews to have their own nation is a zionist who only wants it to "bring armageddon" as opposed to someone who just thinks they deserve their own land?

i have


Me too! What the folks here don't understand is that Zionism is a movement created to corrupt Judaism and lead to their eventual destruction. Like I pointed out the other day, no one is more a cheerleader of Zionism as are the Evangelical US Christians that practically fund that whole welfare state. They would love to see all Jews move to Israel where they can create some provocations and create a war of annihilation between the Muslims and Jews and bring about their Rapture and Armageddon. Really sick shit. Too bad these are the people that are in charge and are pretty successful in selling the world their deceptions.

 
At 24 June, 2006 00:20, Blogger nesNYC said...

Has anyone else notice when someone around here starts making strong points contrary to what Shawn, Alex, james, undense, and others OS'er believe they run for the hill or resorts to name calling and mockery?

LOL! Oh yeah, I notice that all the time.

 
At 24 June, 2006 00:31, Blogger nesNYC said...

So Israel, our ally, has more reason to attack us than a man who has ordered attacks against American and allied targets? Even when the American retaliation causes worldwide condemnation and violence against Israel to escalate?

Good observation. But you're off by a bit. Israel, or Zionist zealots, have every reason to attack the US covertly and make it look like the Arabs did it. In this way, the US can begin to clear the path of Arabs and funnel their oil through Israel.

Also, the additional fallout, or those pesky suicide attacks against Israel proper actually work in Israel's benefit. Currently, less than a thousand Jews have died because of these attacks but more than 2000 Palestinians have been killed by IDF in "retaliation" for those said "attacks" since the Intifada.

Benjamin Netanyahu on 911:

"It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"

Don't you smell a rat? I do.

 
At 24 June, 2006 00:46, Blogger nesNYC said...

I do understand that Palestine was eventually chosen as the site for this homeland (and you tend to forget that there was nobody there until Jews started moving in and creating infrastructure).

Give it back to the Arabs? They didn't move in there till it was all fixed up and worth living in.


The "Land for a people for a people without a land" is Zionist propaganda plain and simple.

The British granted small segments of Palestine to the Zionists under the conditions that they not overrun the natives. That is a documented fact and is why the remaining British had to be terrorized to leave. There were sizable Arab populations along with Christians and even some Jews that lived on this land. But when the Zionist came in, they even killed or kicked out the Jews that opposed the way the new immigrants were treating the natives.

In later UN resolutions, both states of Israel and Palestine were created however, Israel never acknowledged the right of Palestine to exist and is why the Palestinians extended them the same courtesy. But what we only hear in the US media is that it’s the Palestinian’s fault.

If you get past the media propaganda on the subject, you'll see why this conflict is not designed to end, only escalate.

 
At 24 June, 2006 05:27, Blogger JoanBasil said...

Israel is a place where most of the world's Jews only go for a vacation a few times in their life or not at all. Only a small fraction of the world's Jews live in Israel. That in itself flies in the face of the need for a Jewish state. And its not like there hasn't been a big push to get Jews to go live in Israel. The secrets Jonathan Pollard stole and gave to Israel were traded to the Soviets to get more Jews out of the USSR and settle them Israel. (But theres some problem with bringing in Ethiopian Jews http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/729248.html)

 
At 24 June, 2006 09:03, Blogger Alex said...

Unbeleivable.

So what's your solution Joan? Destroy Israel?

Instead of bitching, why don't you offer some solutions?

I'd ask insync the same question, but I already know his solution: genocide.

 
At 24 June, 2006 09:10, Blogger shawn said...

remaining British had to be terrorized to leave. There were sizable Arab populations along with Christians and even some Jews that lived on this land

In the entirely of Palestine, yes, but not in the specific area that was eventually given to the Jews.

In later UN resolutions, both states of Israel and Palestine were created however, Israel never acknowledged the right of Palestine to exist and is why the Palestinians extended them the same courtesy.

I really need to start listing all your factual errors. WHEN ISRAEL WAS CREATED EGYPT, SYRIA, AND JORDAN GOBBLED UP THE REST OF PALESTINE. They then started a war to wipe out Israel. Are you really that ignorant? When the whole "Palestine" nonsense happened Israel was all for a two-state solution, except for the fact the PA coninutes to turn it down. They were even going to build a highway so the Palestinians could go from Gaza to the West Bank. God, you're stupid.

If you get past the media propaganda on the subject, you'll see why this conflict is not designed to end, only escalate.

If you weren't an idiot and actually knew history, you might be able to speak intelligently on the subject. And if you think the media sides with Israel, you need a reality check (well, you need one for a number of subjects, this one included).

Israel is a place where most of the world's Jews only go for a vacation a few times in their life or not at all. Only a small fraction of the world's Jews live in Israel. That in itself flies in the face of the need for a Jewish state.

Seventy-seven percent of Israel is Jewish, which amounts to about five and a half million people. That's more than one third of the globe's Jewish population.

So more than one third is now a tiny fraction?

Arguing with you guys is fun, I don't even have to try.

 
At 24 June, 2006 09:59, Blogger jackhanyes said...

Arguing with you guys is fun, I don't even have to try.

You pick and choose the subjects you want to argue, ignore the ones that challenges your mind, and toss big-word insults like a monkey tosses shit when you have nothing to fall back on.

 
At 24 June, 2006 10:03, Blogger shawn said...

You pick and choose the subjects you want to argue, ignore the ones that challenges your mind, and toss big-word insults like a monkey tosses shit when you have nothing to fall back on.

Excellent defense.

What's wrong with big-word insults? I understand what they mean, and I guess you guys don't.

Oh, do you ignore all the times I don't point out logical fallacies and just point out factual errors? I'm not going to continue to debunk the same things over and over, so I "pick and choose" whatever's new.

Not like you'd ever level your fucking nonsense against the people that believe the same bull you do.

 
At 24 June, 2006 12:57, Blogger nesNYC said...

Oh, do you ignore all the times I don't point out logical fallacies

The Osama caper is a logical fallacy yet you fail to identify it as such. Why?

 
At 24 June, 2006 13:20, Blogger CHF said...

jack,

"You pick and choose the subjects you want to argue..."

This from a guy who ignores any structural engineering reports that don't conclude with "Bush did it" (which is 100% of them).

 
At 24 June, 2006 14:14, Blogger Alex said...

In later UN resolutions, both states of Israel and Palestine were created however, Israel never acknowledged the right of Palestine to exist and is why the Palestinians extended them the same courtesy.

Not only was Israel perfectly happy to acknowledge the existance of Palestine, they even asked the Arabs living INSIDE Israel to stay and help them build a new nation, AND they appealed to surrounding nations to make peace, and work together for the betterment of all Middle Eastern nations. Here's the evidence:

"We appeal - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East. "

- From Israels Proclamation of Independence


Meanwhile, the surrounding Arab states were busy killing and expunging close to 1 million Jews.

Also, as has been correctly pointed out, the evacuation of "Palestine" was initialy done by the arabs themselves. Arab leaders encouraged them to leave, saying it would be safer for them to get out of the way while the combined arab armies quickly crushed the Jews. Ofcourse, they ended up losing, and insead of carving up Israel, they annexed much of what we today call "Palestine". Much of that area wasn't given back to your "Palestinians" untill Israel re-captured the land from Egypt and Syria (actually, don't quote me on the exact countries, but they deffinitely recaptured the land from other Arab nations, and then ended up giving it to "Palestine").

 
At 24 June, 2006 15:53, Blogger default.xbe said...

The Osama caper is a logical fallacy yet you fail to identify it as such. Why?

what logical fallacy is it?

 
At 24 June, 2006 16:44, Blogger shawn said...

The Osama caper is a logical fallacy yet you fail to identify it as such.

Which logical fallacy is it? He's a human being who has release many non-fake audio tapes and videos.

Your logical fallacy where you say something is so because it is so is called arguing the consequent.

 

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