Thursday, November 23, 2006

Even The Sane Ones Are Crazy!

I have always considered Russell Pickering one of the more reasonable truthers, although this is a bit like talking about the most sane person in a mental asylum, but even he is not above lying to support his views. From a recent radio appearance with Dylan Avery:

Let's not forget, the Project for a New American Century, published a document in September 2000 that was written and formulated much earlier that called specifically for forward permanent military installations in Iraq.

Yeah, OK. Here is the document, titled Rebuilding America's Defenses. Please point out the section specifically calling for military installations in Iraq.

Hilariously do-over Dylan repeats his claim that in the next version they are going to "cut the fat and cut out all the things we got in trouble for", "whittle out all the bad evidence", and "get all of our ducks in a row". Well this will be their 4th attempt at the truth after all. That is OK Dylan, we know you try hard.

48 Comments:

At 23 November, 2006 08:59, Blogger MarkyX said...

Yeah, quick question for those who think 9/11 was a benefit for PNAC: What ten things has the Bush adminstration done so far to promote the agenda of PNAC?

Show me a situation, then a reference to the PNAC.

Call it a challenge.

 
At 23 November, 2006 10:23, Blogger CHF said...

A good challenge indeed.

The twoofers always reference PNAC without ever directly quoting it.

They'll talk about "a new Pearl Harbor" without including the context: that a new missile defence project to guard against rogue regimes would be implimented slowly UNLESS THERE IS A NEW PEARL HARBOR.

God only knows how this idea of missile defence was aided by 9/11.

 
At 23 November, 2006 10:32, Blogger CHF said...

"cut the fat and cut out all the things we got in trouble for"

Ummm...that's just about everything.

cellphone vs airphones, still alive hijackers, squibs, no wreckage at the Pentagon, PNAC, bombs at the WTC, "pull it," Flight 93 in Cleveland...

...all this will be gone, Dylan?

Not bloody likely.

 
At 23 November, 2006 11:54, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

If it were not such a dry, boring read, i would go through it and break it down paragraph by paragraph for the latperson, so that EVERYONE could see exactly what it says and means, not what the twoofers would have everyone believe it means.

TAM

 
At 23 November, 2006 13:39, Blogger Democrat said...

4th time?

Are they finally breaking the 911 commission's record of 3 changes to their story?

 
At 23 November, 2006 14:39, Blogger CHF said...

How did the 9/11 commission's story change, Dem?

Did they start off with "Brazilian" terrorists and then later change to "Saudi?"

 
At 23 November, 2006 14:58, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...


4th time?

Are they finally breaking the 911 commission's record of 3 changes to their story?


Well...yes, but this is relatively minor compared to the hundreds of variations of the actual events of 9/11 that the "truthers" spue forward on a daily basis.

TAM

 
At 23 November, 2006 18:21, Blogger shawn said...

Are they finally breaking the 911 commission's record of 3 changes to their story?

You're an insult to all good Democrats.

 
At 23 November, 2006 19:32, Blogger R.Lange said...

The word 'Iraq' appears 25 times in "Rebuilding America's Defenses". About half of them are in the context of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, the subsequent conflict, and the no-fly zone that was put in place. The other half are in the context of what kind of a threat Iraq poses and is mentioned alongside of other potentially threating countries (like Iran).

There are absolutely no connections between the mentions of Iraq and any plan for a forward military base in the country.

The phrase 'Middle East' appears only 8 times in the same document. Again, no connection with a plan to set up a forward military base in the region.

In fact, the phrase 'military base' appears a whopping 0 times in the entire document.

For all their whining demand for "independent research", the Truthers™ certainly don't make it easy. Heh.

 
At 24 November, 2006 05:54, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This post and the related comments shows a case where, except for the name calling, I completely agree with the accuracy of the claims of fact from the "Screw Loose Change" point of view.

Russell Pickering did err with what he said.

Even if what his said were accurate, taking about the PNAC writings and objectives is a long way from taking the evidence of what happened on 9/11 and establishing a direct link to PNAC / Neocons.

You are right to point out these flaws.

 
At 24 November, 2006 06:25, Blogger CHF said...

BG,

Nice to see you acknowledge reality for a change.

Now ask yourself why so many in the twoof movement feel the need to so blatantly misrepresent the claims made in PNAC to the point where they claim it says things it doesn't say...

 
At 24 November, 2006 10:07, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

So JamesB, if the only thing you picked out was the PNAC thing, I shall assume you agreed with everything else Russell said in that 2 hour radio broadcast.

 
At 24 November, 2006 10:10, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

PNAC was not the only mention of a new pearl harbour. The Grand Chessboard mentions it as well as calling for a "truly massive, widely percieved external threat".

Then in 1998 the Executive Director of the 911 commission wrote an article saying that if the towers had fallen in 1993 would be a new pearl harbour.

All very convenient.

 
At 24 November, 2006 10:46, Blogger 911coverup said...

The disaster in Iraq was planned, as it was predicted in a 1999 wargame.

1999 war games foresaw problems in Iraq
By JOHN HEILPRIN ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER WASHINGTON -- The U.S. government conducted a series of secret war games in 1999 that anticipated an invasion of Iraq would require 400,000 troops, and even then chaos might ensue. In its "Desert Crossing" games, 70 military, diplomatic and intelligence officials assumed the high troop levels would be needed to keep order, seal borders and take care of other security needs. The documents came to light Saturday through a Freedom of Information Act request by the George Washington University's National Security Archive, an independent research institute and library. "The conventional wisdom is the U.S. mistake in Iraq was not enough troops," said Thomas Blanton, the archive's director. "But the Desert Crossing war game in 1999 suggests we would have ended up with a failed state even with 400,000 troops on the ground."

 
At 24 November, 2006 10:51, Blogger James B. said...

So JamesB, if the only thing you picked out was the PNAC thing, I shall assume you agreed with everything else Russell said in that 2 hour radio broadcast.



No, there were plenty of of other stupid things said in the interview, but those were the only 2 I felt like writing about. Nobody wants to read a 2000 word blog post anyway.

 
At 24 November, 2006 13:29, Blogger Alex said...

So the evil government kills off 3,000 citizens in order to get an excuse to invade Iraq....and then sends way too few soldiers to Iraq?

All this twoofer logic is making my head hurt...

 
At 24 November, 2006 13:36, Blogger BoggleHead said...

The Associated Press just did a story about the European connection to Mohammed Atta at the flight school in Venice.

The FBI just issued a terror alert for someone associated with Atta at Huffman Aviation in Venice, where two of the lead hijackers trained. Huffman Aviation's owner, Wally Hilliard, had 42 lbs of heroin confiscated aboard his Lear jet by the DEA the same month Atta arrived.

He served no jail time and the plane was returned to him.

Wolfgang Bohringer, one of Atta's European contacts in Venice, who was witnessed by Atta's ex-girlfriend Amanda Keller dealing extensively in cocaine obtained from the other Florida flight school (where another lead hijacker trained), opened a flight school specializing in DC3s, a notorious smuggling plane, in a tiny country off the coast of Australia.

Both flight schools were opened by Dutch nationals (who are not allowed to register planes or own flight schools in the US) about the same time, their managers are associates, and they have a common German financier, Richard Boehlke, known for his involvement in real estate fraud to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Bohringer has fled his tiny island sanctuary and FBI have issued a terror alert.

Wolfgang Bohringer was at one point the personal pilot for Viktor Kozeny, notorious Cezch mobster and one of the richest men in Cezchoslovakia and a notorious narcotics trafficker.

 
At 24 November, 2006 13:39, Blogger BoggleHead said...

So we're talking about three flight schools, for clarity.

Two were opened by Dutch nationals in Florida and together trained three of the hijackers. The flight schools can be shown to be associated, though the actual owners find the connection unflattering since 9/11.

The other was opened by a flight instructor who was a close contact of Mohammed Atta at the flight schools, and is the most recent event.

This stuff happened less than two weeks ago and the guy is on the run from the FBI, Australian and possibly New Zealand authorities.

 
At 24 November, 2006 13:42, Blogger BoggleHead said...

By the way, this is not a joke

"Report: FBI raises terror alarm about South Pacific flying school
The Associated Press
Published: November 15, 2006

CANBERRA, Australia: U.S. authorities have raised an alarm over a plan by a German citizen — linked to the Sept. 11 terror attacks — to build a flying school in a remote South Pacific island nation, a news report said Wednesday.

Wolfgang Bohringer has been linked to Mohamed Atta, the lead hijacker in the attacks on New York and Washington in 2001. The German arrived by yacht in Kiribati a year ago with plans to build a flying school, but has since left the far-flung archipelago, Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio reported."

 
At 24 November, 2006 13:52, Blogger CHF said...

The topic and PNAC and here's bogglehead babbling on about flight schools and hijackers.

Then when a threads starts on flight schools and hijackers he'll want to talk about PNAC.

This is why engaging these morons is often such a waste of time. They tend to have the attention span of a 4 year old.

 
At 24 November, 2006 14:34, Blogger BoggleHead said...

NEWSFLASH, retard

This story is a hot lead on Atta's support network in the US from the Associated Press.

If you can't even appreciate that from what I've posted, then I question your attention span.

If you want to discuss PNAC while the FBI is raising terror alarms about an associate of Atta's at the flight school where the hijackers trained to kill 3000 americans opening a NEW FLIGHT SCHOOL then clearly you're the four year old.

 
At 24 November, 2006 14:43, Blogger Alex said...

You're calling HIM a retard? Listen numbnuts, even assuming that there IS some sort of connection here, AND that this guy is really planning on opening a new school, AND that he plans on training terrorists, there's STILL no point worrying about it at the moment since:

a) it's going to take a while to open the damn school.
b) it's going to take a while to train potential suicide pilots.
c) any pilots trained there would need to overcome much tougher security measures than the ones in place on the morning of 9/11.
d) potential terrorists can already learn to fly in the middle east, africa, and many parts of asia.

In other words, I don't think anyone really gives a shit. And if the FBI is really raising "terror alerts" over this, they must be really starved for attention. They should be investigating any formal connection and laying charges as appropriate, not wasting our time with pointless alerts.

 
At 24 November, 2006 14:49, Blogger James B. said...

I thought Atta was alive and had nothing to do with the attack.

Will you people make up your minds already!?

 
At 24 November, 2006 14:56, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"You're calling HIM a retard?"

I suppose this means you're calling me one back. Let's see how you do.

"Listen numbnuts, even assuming that there IS some sort of connection here,"

great cause I can prove that

"AND that this guy is really planning on opening a new school,"

Yes, for DC3s, a notorious smuggling plane. Many indications that he just showed up on a yacht and started making precisely these arrangements. Next?

"AND that he plans on training terrorists,"

he is also involved extensively with Viktor Kozeny, a major narcotics trafficker

Atta's ex-girlfriend says that major cocaine shipments were being plundered by Atta and Bohringer at the Venice flight schools and the Dept. of Justice in fact has disclosed some of the details of a 42 lb heroin confiscation on the owner of one of the flight school's Lear jets.

so these are also possibilities

"there's STILL no point worrying about it at the moment since:

a) it's going to take a while to open the damn school."

he's on the run now. the reason people contacted the authories about him is because an investigative journalist disclosed his activities and the locals became suspicious.

that's actually why i read this investigative reporter's stuff on 9/11, so we don't have to worry.

i do your worrying for you.

you're welcome

"b) it's going to take a while to train potential suicide pilots."

but espionage, blackmail and narcotrafficking are forever

thank god

"c) any pilots trained there would need to overcome much tougher security measures than the ones in place on the morning of 9/11."

bullshit, tiger teams of law enforcement have something like an 80% success rate bringing guns onto planes

this constitutes the element of surprise over US marshalls

what are you, a retard?

"d) potential terrorists can already learn to fly in the middle east, africa, and many parts of asia."

potential terrorists, in other words, "anybody"

this is not the "war on anybody" you fucking dolt

this is the war on the people who got away with 9/11

what are you, a retard?

"In other words, I don't think anyone really gives a shit."

just the people who think "9/11 changed everything" and would actually like to confirm or deny the perpetrators' identities as being german nationals, saudi nationals, al qaeda, or "other"

if you don't give a shit about these questions, i'm going to assumed you're grossly misinformed about the answers

"And if the FBI is really raising "terror alerts" over this, they must be really starved for attention."

The perpetrators of 9/11 open another flight school. It wouldn't take a 9/11 commission to discover that by investigating and responding to their plans you can thereby prevent their designs from coming to fruition.

What are you, a retard?

"They should be investigating any formal connection and laying charges as appropriate, not wasting our time with pointless alerts."

What the fuck is a formal connection?

This guy constitutes part of the support network for Mohammed Atta.

Man, you're pretty stupid.

Next applicant please.

 
At 24 November, 2006 15:19, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Hello, Earth to Retard

This guy got away with 9/11.

By all accounts this is probably the guy who imported the hundreds of middle eastern men into the sleepy retirement town of Venice Florida (the phenomenon is documented and was widely noticed at the time) of which Mohammed Atta was one.

Of course they should issue a terror alert when he tries to open a new flight school under his own name 2000 miles off of territory.

If you don't worry about catching the people who commit the crimes the crimes keep happening.

You're a retard, and I want the next applicant to not be.

 
At 24 November, 2006 17:00, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

welcome back bogglehead, been a while since we have seen you. It has been so long I can't even remember whether you sit more in the LIHOP/MIHOP/Debunker/ or Other camp....maybe neither?

TAM

 
At 24 November, 2006 17:08, Blogger BoggleHead said...

you remember that i was reasonable, i hope

that should be enough

i fall in the camp that thinks that the actual evidence provided by congressional reports to the effect that saudi arabian spy handlers were managing two of the hijackers living with an FBI informant in san diego needs to be examined

particularly since the white house blocked that informant's congressional subpoena, the only one issued in the course of the Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Failures of 9/11

 
At 24 November, 2006 17:37, Blogger Triterope said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 November, 2006 17:50, Blogger Triterope said...

Nobody wants to read a 2000 word blog post anyway.

Advice that Bogglehead should really take to heart. BTW, he's currently at 1,206.

 
At 24 November, 2006 21:31, Blogger BoggleHead said...

how many were true?

 
At 25 November, 2006 08:51, Blogger Triterope said...

Of the words you wrote? Zero. Which you'd know if you'd spend two minutes investigating any of this crap you mindlessly cut-and-paste from conspiracy websites. You think we haven't heard all this bullshit before?

 
At 25 November, 2006 09:22, Blogger Alex said...

you remember that i was reasonable, i hope

Nope, try again.

That entire post made about as much sense as a football bat. Although, I gotta admit, the "german connection" is one of the more creative CT's so far. You're amusing if nothing else.

 
At 25 November, 2006 09:47, Blogger BoggleHead said...

I stole that joke from the FBI, the Associated Press and the Joint House-Senate Inquiry.

 
At 25 November, 2006 09:48, Blogger BoggleHead said...

titerope, you haven't heard any of this before

nor has anyone else on this site

 
At 25 November, 2006 10:50, Blogger BoggleHead said...

titerope, i didn't cut and paste anything but the associated press thing, which is in quotes

thanks for trying, play again

an applicant who's not a retard please

 
At 25 November, 2006 13:55, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

yes I do remember you were reasonable, and even became convinced on a couple of aspects of 9/11 that favoured the debunking side, the pentagon issues I believe.

Welcome back. I agree there are elements of the CIA/FBI relations to, and knowledge of the hijackers prior to 9/11 that warrant re-examining, and if you are now saying that an associate of Atta's is now cooking something up that could be a security risk, than yes, it warrants looking into.

TAM

 
At 25 November, 2006 17:38, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

So JamesB, if the only thing you picked out was the PNAC thing, I shall assume you agreed with everything else Russell said in that 2 hour radio broadcast.

Typical Nutbar Douchebag reasoning.

 
At 25 November, 2006 18:21, Blogger Murdervillage said...

bogglehead said...

Atta's ex-girlfriend says that major cocaine shipments were being plundered by Atta and Bohringer at the Venice flight schools...

Atta's "girlfriend" Amanda Keller admits to lying about having had a relationship with him, and the FBI says there is no evidence of such a relationship. Do your homework, boggle.

For five years, Amanda Keller has been portrayed by conspiracy theorists as Mohamed Atta's lover.

But the former Venice stripper now says her boyfriend was another flight student not connected to 9/11. And, for the first time, federal investigators say she's right.

"There's nothing there to corroborate the relationship between the two," a New York-based FBI counterterrorism agent said recently after reviewing 9/11 case files.

The agent got clearance to talk from the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI, but only agreed if his named was not used.

Among other things, the government checked Atta's phone records and found the two had never called each other.


http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060910/NEWS/609100466/1007/BUSINESS

 
At 25 November, 2006 19:03, Blogger Murdervillage said...

bogglehead said...

Atta's ex-girlfriend says that major cocaine shipments were being plundered by Atta and Bohringer at
the Venice flight schools and theDept. of Justice in fact has disclosed some of the details of a 42 lb heroin confiscation on the owner of one of the flight school's Lear jets.


Boggle, you seem to be reading Hopsicker, whence many of these insinuations come. You'd be hard-pressed to find a less accurate source of information. You said the DOJ released information on the heroin smuggling. Well, does it correspond to Hopsicker's version, or to Wally Hilliard's, who owned the Lear jet in question?

Hopsicker:
"Because while Dekkers busied himself training young Arab men to fly, his partner Wally Hilliard had been running a charter service providing jets used to carry heroin, not a line of work you'd expect a retired Midwestern insurance executive to take up as a hobby on retirement in Florida."

In an interview last week, Hopsicker said Hilliard was "deep into investing" in what went on in Venice and that Dekkers was just a "front man."

"Court filings show he was the owner (of Huffman Aviation) during the time terrorists were flying in and out. The two questions I have are what was he doing in business with Rudi and what was he doing buying up a fleet of planes after retirement?" Hopsicker said.


Hilliard, who did not own a "fleet of planes," replies:
Hilliard tells the story differently -- without reference to government agencies, drug smuggling and terrorist links. He also has gotten to the point where he can chuckle about a story he calls absurd.

"I once owned a Lear jet that was chartered by a pilot in Fort Lauderdale," Hilliard said. "He had a customer in Venezuela and made a few regular trips back and forth. On one trip, it cleared customs and flew to Orlando on the way to Washington, D.C. When they got to Orlando, he was greeted by the DEA. They searched the luggage of the passenger and found heroin.

"The passenger went straight to jail. The pilot went straight to jail for about 15 hours. He may have been dumb, but it wasn't illegal. It was a charter flight, and there was no way the pilot was guilty of anything, and I hadn't been within 50 miles of the plane at the time.

"The only reason you own a Lear jet is to fly it yourself or lease it out for profit," said Hilliard, who has a pilot's license. He said he has owned two Lear jets, not a fleet, as alleged in the book. "And the sale of one and purchase of another may have overlapped so I owned two at a time for a while."

"I had no connection to the flight school. I have no ghost of an idea as to who the students are. They had enough money to pay $40 an hour to learn how to fly a single-engine plane. To learn to fly a jet, they had to go to another flight school up north."

..."The FAA took a look at these allegations and said there was no problem. I've never seen the book. I saw the stuff on the Internet and I went to an attorney. I talked to the FBI and FAA. They all said it's not worth the trouble. Freedom of speech -- that's why we live in America."


http://www.madcowprod.com/greenbayreview.htm

So, do the details of the heroin bust corroborate the accounts of Hopsicker or of Hilliard? Let us know what you find out, okay?

 
At 25 November, 2006 20:31, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"The agent got clearance to talk from the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI, but only agreed if his named was not used."

so there's no source for this story

i wonder why nameless guy doesn't want to hang his hat on the credibility of his statement

care to show me that amanda keller retracted everything she said?

also, the details sound the same

who cares if two lear jets constitutes a "fleet"

hilliard owned a flight school, right?

hilliard is just downplaying the fact that it was his plane that was being used to transport the largest drug find "in central florida history"

 
At 25 November, 2006 20:44, Blogger BoggleHead said...

this is no different from how hopsicker described it

it was the largest drug bust in central florida history, and florida history is really one of the most bespeckled with large drug busts in the entire union

by the way, this is not the only plane associated with this airport that ran drugs from venezuela

hilliard's plane was going back and forth from venezuela for 39 weeks in a row before being caught

but more recently a plane with 5.5 tons of cocaine painted to look like air force one ran into trouble in mexico. it had also come from venezuela and was last registered to people operating out of virtually the same office from how i understand it.

the company whose logo appears on the plane SkyWay got lucrative contracts related to homeland security from jeb bush's florida if i recall

but back to hilliard, is hilliard trying to suggest that the fact that the pilot didn't go to jail means his plane wasn't hauling the largest drug bust in central florida history from venezuela?

or that it hadn't been making the same trip back and forth from venezuela for 39 weeks?

now tell me, what was the passenger's jail sentence?

when it comes to the pilot, we see from hopsicker's site:

"The pilot of Hilliard’s busted Lear, Venezuelan Diego Levine Texar, was not taken into custody. “The pilot was not arrested, according to a DEA spokesman, because of a lack of evidence,” reported the Orlando Sentinel. He has since been identified as also being the chief pilot on Venezuela’s “Air Force One,” which provides a bit of context for last week’s news that the State Department was revoking the visas of three Venezuelan military officers suspected of involvement in drug trafficking."

 
At 26 November, 2006 05:09, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

Since Keller denies knowing or having a relationship with Atta, anything she has said in reference to him, relating to her personal knowledge of him, is also false as a result.

TAM

 
At 26 November, 2006 10:50, Blogger BoggleHead said...

macrophage, where do you get that from anyway?

 
At 26 November, 2006 10:58, Blogger BoggleHead said...

the problem with saying amanda keller recanted her testiony is that her testimony was already corroborated by other eyewitnesses

anyway, i found hopsicker's response

http://www.madcowprod.com/10042006.html

 
At 26 November, 2006 11:00, Blogger BoggleHead said...

also it's just very poor logic to say that things that are true about bohringer are false merely because keller said them

if you want other examples of witnesses being pressured to change their story, i can get them for you obviously

 
At 26 November, 2006 13:26, Blogger Triterope said...

a plane with 5.5 tons of cocaine painted to look like air force one

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

 
At 26 November, 2006 14:51, Blogger Alex said...

Yeah, this guy's really something special. Stop reading conspiracy theory websites bogglenuts! When you get half of your "information" from people who are certifiably insane, your world view changes so much that even mainstream media reports start to seem sinister. You need to get away from those lunatics, and start de-programming yourself.

 
At 26 November, 2006 19:01, Blogger Murdervillage said...

BoggleHead said...

"The agent got clearance to talk from the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI, but only agreed if his named was not used."

so there's no source for this story

The article quotes Amanda Keller saying she lied about Atta:

"It was my bad for lying. I really didn't think about it until after I did it."

That's a pretty good source.

 

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home