Griffin's Three Key Pieces of Evidence
David Ray Griffin reveals what he thinks are the three big things:
The behavior of Bush at the schoolhouse in Florida ("Secret Service should have whisked him out immediately if we're under attack but he stayed over 30 minutes. ... It's pretty clear evidence that they knew they wouldn't be attacked"), the strange pyrotechnics that brought down the World Trade Center ("fire has never brought down a steel high-rise building") and the poorly planned targeting of the West Wing of the Pentagon ("all the important people are in the East Wing -- it doesn't make any sense").
And if the attack had been at the East Wing, Griffin would wonder why he didn't hit the West Wing because that was the closest and most direct shot the hijackers had at the Pentagon. As for Bush's "behavior" at the school, what about his behavior afterwards, when he flew to Nebraska and only later in the day back to Washington. Shouldn't he have "known" that it was safe to fly back to DC? "Pyrotechnics" at the WTC? Show me just one controlled demolition that starts at the top and cascades down floor by floor. You can't, because that's not how controlled demolition is done.
Labels: David Ray Griffin
posted by Pat @ 7:11 AM
58 comments
58 Comments:
chf,
I actually agree with you to some extent... that these three things do not a strong case make.
Of course Griffin has always been simply a leading figure who could present questions about 9/11 without appearing and acting crazy (think Fetzer / Jones). He's never been the leader who holds the only debating points.
In fact, as James has done a very good job of pointing out, Griffin has been sloppy and downright duplicitous in writing about some points, such as as the supposed defenses at the Pentagon.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying Griffin is an Operative or disinfo artist. I'm just saying that I respect that people like Nico have been doubting the involvement (as a 9/11 movement "leader") of Griffin from the start.
Unlike some (perhaps Jenny), I think the representation that SLC Blog allows Nico is a positive contribution to the debate. And Griffin's lack of depth and follow-thru (and perhaps ulterior motives) have been discussed by those that many here have laughed at as the equivalent of feces throwing monkeys.
I destinctly remember credible 'threats' allegedly being made against Dumbya which prompted the SS (haha) to keep him in the relative security of Air Force 1.
Now think about that. If in fact America was under "attack" there is no way that dumb ass would have been allowed to remain in place for all that while. The dog did not bark.
All three of Griffin's items are Argument from Personal Incredulity. He should at least vary his fallacies on occasion.
Show me just one controlled demolition that starts at the top and cascades down floor by floor. You can't, because that's not how controlled demolition is done.
It started in the subbasement around level B at least that is where the weakening of the support began which is the first step in a traditional CD, anyway. To weaken the supports first.
In order to hit the east wing, all the hijacker would have to do is say turn right instead of left to line up the money shot,eh? Ever wonder why the hijacker didn't do that? Or say fly it over the top and hit the opposite portion for say greater effect?
The defense of the Pentagon has been misconstrued. The defense of the Pentagon should have been the air to air missiles that should have been launched from CAP's after 'they' determined it was an attack after all. In that sense, that is what should have defended the Pentagon. G to A batteries etc. is irrelevant and a detractor for that matter.
And bunks, please don't rehash the NORAD response, it has been debunked by NORAD itself.
SLC: Where fiction is fact and fact is fiction!
It started in the subbasement around level B at least that is where the weakening of the support began which is the first step in a traditional CD, anyway.
Turns out that not only is swinger dumb, he's blind too! Now if only he were also mute.....
LOL! Just look here and all the nonsense stops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIgoXQWiSlM
The towers were bought down with explosives, END OF STORY.
Ever wonder why the hijacker didn't do that? Or say fly it over the top and hit the opposite portion for say greater effect?
The defense of the Pentagon should have been the air to air missiles that should have been launched. In that sense, that is what should have defended the Pentagon.
As I was saying...
So now its air to air missiles? I didn't know that the pentagon had jets circling around it 24/7.
As I was saying...
Right, I hear the crickets. By the time the Pentagon got 'hit' there should have been jets in the air according to well established protocols. Since these protocols weren't adhered to, it is logical to conclude that stand down orders were in effect.
Yeah Swing - they blew up the basement in a top-down collapse.
I'm guessing you still haven't contacted any engineers.
No need. The video evidence and eyewitness testimonials does the trick better than any engineer with government grants to loose or be blacklisted by their respective organization.
By the time the Pentagon got 'hit' there should have been
it is logical to conclude that stand down orders were in effect.
As I was saying...
As I was saying...
Sorry to leave you speechless. I know, the truth hurts sometimes :)
Sorry to leave you speechless.
Sorry nesync, but if you want to shock me, you'll have to say something intelligent.
"Now think about that. If in fact America was under "attack" there is no way that dumb ass would have been allowed to remain in place for all that while."
NO, Now think about this idiot!
If the administration knew 911 was going to happen, Bush would have been presented in the best light. In the White House, On the job.
The fact he was seen looking stupid and weak, reading children stories, and then ran off and hid show they were clueless as to what had happened. Clueless is a good word to describe Bush.
Why is it truthers can not rub two brain cells together and tell they are being suckered by the agenda driven conspiracy theorist?
nesNYC said...
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIgoXQWiSlM
The towers were bought down with explosives, END OF STORY."
Ah, Yes, Typical truther, Too dumb to argue REAL science and logic,
Part of the "Show me a video, I am too dumb to understand anything without pictures" generation. Show some moving pictures, add some hip-hop musics and these losers will buy anything.
Real genius that nesNYC.
911_truthiness said...
"Now think about that. If in fact America was under "attack" there is no way that dumb ass would have been allowed to remain in place for all that while."
The problem with Griffin, and the problem with leading a discussion with this kind of argument about Florida, Bush behavior, Secret Service bahavior, Andrew Card's behavior, is that it starts an argument that quicky loses it's traction due to fallacies that are being pointed out here.
The message from Griffin, and the message from all those concerned about 9/11 should be about examining the entirety of the evidence rather than trying a David Lettman style "Top Ten Reasons" approach. (I'm still angry at Fetzer's top ten reasons there were no hijackers presentation.)
There is a huge difference between citing details that may be deemed as worthy of further investigation, and saying the deails prove something.
Real genius that nesNYC.
So you're saying melting steel makes big booms like that? Of course! I need an engineer to explain that to me, my bad :( LOL! You're absolutely laughable!
Sorry Trite for not clearing that up. The air to air missiles from the CAP that should have been overhead after the second plane hit the tower.
CHF, not only have I begun contacting them engineers but, I also have 4 credible eyewitness accounts of sublevel basement explosion around B Level. Their stories all corrborate each other. None of them involve the results of jet fuel. Several of them remind them of the truck bombing in 1993. You can continue to deny this fact but in no way can you debunk it or blow it off as a conspiracy theory.
Richard, find out the time difference between the 2nd tower hit, the announcement of "We are under attack." That is how much time the fighters had. And please share with us your time calculation.
If the administration knew 911 was going to happen, Bush would have been presented in the best light. In the White House, On the job.
You definitely need to brush (not Bush) up on your info. If someone figured out what the administration was up to, there could have been a coup effective immediately. Bush would have been shot on the spot. Good thing he was around children and in his BROTHER'S state no? Makes plenty of sense to me.
"So you're saying melting steel makes big booms like that? Of course! I need an engineer to explain that to me, my bad :( LOL! You're absolutely laughable!"
No. But the large bolts used to hold those steel beam will fail with a BIG BANG when the overheated beams sage and place to much stress on the bolts. And when those beams two ton beams fall into the floor below, what kind of sound do you think it will make?
Come on, I know you are not smart by any means, but this is not rocket science. Think!
Yeah Truthy why nost put the monkey out there to look like an idiot to precisely keep him off the hook as far as accountability goes. Then you use his Executive Super Hero Powers to stall, underfund, delay, appoint, and coverup. Nahh there is no way the
"bafoon" would have known. The 'idiot' card play both ways. The Secret Service action is just a very small part of the things that should have happened but didn't. It reminds me of Johnson's SS vacating his ride to the back seat to protect the Vice-President, while JFK's just looked around oh and hit the breaks. ;)
"You definitely need to brush (not Bush) up on your info. If someone figured out what the administration was up to, there could have been a coup effective immediately. Bush would have been shot on the spot. Good thing he was around children and in his BROTHER'S state no? Makes plenty of sense to me."
So, in other words you can't come up with a logical answer to the question I proposed. So make up some rather stupid concept that Bush would have been shot on the spot, In the white house? Surrounded by his own people?
Yeah... Right.... You are not playing with a truther here, I can think and know bullshit when I see it, and you seem to have a lot of bull to spread around.
Try again.
You guys do realize that you're arguing with two individuals who believe that the holocaust wasn't real, that the moon landing was faked, and that JFK's assassination was a secret CIA plot, right?
I think it's important to remind ourselves of this on occasion, lest we actually start to take them seriously.
Yeah, I think that the best debunking job you can do on Nessie is just to let him talk. If you told him the sky is blue, he'd just come back and tell you that it was pink, but the Jews have been feeding false holograms into our eyes through the mainstream media. Letting his transparent toxic idiocy stand as it is probably criticizes the Twoof movement more than any rebuttal - if 9/11 conspiracy theories appeal to a pop-eyed froth-mouthed fascist retard like this, maybe there really isn't anything in them?
"Yeah Truthy why nost put the monkey out there to look like an idiot to precisely keep him off the hook as far as accountability goes. Then you use his Executive Super Hero Powers to stall, underfund, delay, appoint, and coverup."
Must be great to not have to follow well formed logic. Bush looked dumb, so that was part of the plan. If Bush was in the white house and looking in charge you would say THAT was the plan. It's a win/win situation when you can make shit up.
But then you believe in chemtrial and grassy knoll shooters so I have learned to not expect much from you.
The air to air missiles from the CAP that should have been overhead after the second plane hit the tower.
I appreciate your attempt to clarify, but I fear you are still missing the point. What you think "should" have happened is not a basis for proof.
The Secret Service action is just a very small part of the things that should have happened but didn't.
See? You did it again.
"You guys do realize that you're arguing with two individuals who believe that the holocaust wasn't real, that the moon landing was faked, and that JFK's assassination was a secret CIA plot, right?"
Yeah... But sometimes it's fun to screw with the ignorant. You throw a simple point of reason at them and wait for the often hysterical response.
You just learn to not take them seriously, after all they are no threat to anyone but their own delusional concepts. The more you get them to explain their ideas the more you see how silly they are.
Who has been caught spying on America for the benefit of the Zionist regime?
Lawrence Franklin
Did FBI not raid the AIPAC headquarters? When was the last time the raided Al Qaeda central? Any luck in those caves in Afghanistan? Hahaha.. Absolutely laughable.
But sometimes it's fun to screw with the ignorant.
And is why I'm back for a brief period. You guys are amusing when I push your buttons :)
When was the last time the raided Al Qaeda central?
So now the war in Afghanistan, counterterrorism raids all over the world, you're arguing that all these don't exist too? Is there anyone in the world who isn't part of the conspiracy in your version of events?
"And is why I'm back for a brief period."
Well don't run away! You are a funny guy!
I had fun anyway.
you're arguing that all these don't exist too?
Well, these places are on the map but NO AL QAEDA are ever found there! The Guantanamo prisoners are nothing more than sheep herders if you didn't know.
counterterrorism raids all over the world
Right! And did they even degrade "Al Qaeda's" capabilities? Hahaha.. And guess what? CENTCOM just informed me they created another Osama tape to scare the ignorant.. LOL!
Sd you are nothing but a piece of crap along with that SOB that has that Lunatic from Iran in his sig.
You can spout all your bull shit til the cows come home and it will still be that, Bull Shit.
No CD company in the world agree's with the CD theory. Now you think you know what was in the mind of the hijacker. There was no missle defense other than the ones brought in after the attack, perhaps there is now or there should be, You don't know, but you sure like people to think you do. Don't give us your BS about NORAD, you have no clue. John Pike is one of the worlds experts on these things at Global Security and they know a lot more than you do.
Are you ever going to provide a list of your engineers to back up your crap? Make sure that they don't drive trains
Fiction is fact and fact is fiction in the world of the toofers and has been proven time after time.
Now you think you know what was in the mind of the hijacker.
There were no hijackers. Heck, it's even hard to tell where the passengers all went. You don't need complicated engineering facts to figure that one out.
John Pike is one of the worlds experts on these things at Global Security and they know a lot more than you do.
Paid government mouthpieces don't count.
with Nessie back, and Swing in full swing, it sure makes for alot of scrolling down.
TAM:)
The posts these loons makes are so far out there, that yes, you really don't have to reply.
People like nesync and Swing have hit rock bottom, yet they continue to dig.
You obviously have no clue about John Pike but that is not supriseing.
Mr Pike, for example, is a world renound expert on these things, that has been proven by both sides as are the others. Global security.org is one of the defacto standards on the subject. There are at least 3 sources that have been verified. You have no idea just how qualified these people are and you are just a parrot. Prove any wrong if you can your current response is pitifull.
Do you know more than this man
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/staff/say.htm
or this guy
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/biographies/biographies_show.htm?doc_id=154751
All the passengers were identified to the satisfaction of their families.
How about proveing your claims?
LOL! Just look here and all the nonsense stops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIgoXQWiSlM
The towers were bought down with explosives, END OF STORY.
"...may have...", "...reports of...", "...being cautious...", "...possibility of...", "...sounded like..." "...might be something that could lead to..." etc etc etc.
Same old inconclusive quotes from the chaos with the added bonus of a mad old woman yelling at us.
Ah, Nessie. I've missed your "all loud noises are explosions, all explosions are caused by explosives" mentality. Refresher course: "sounds like explosions" does not equal "is explosions." 911_truthiness already covered the sound of large objects colliding. I'm pretty sure we explained months ago that electrical panels & transformers explode in building fires. You will concede the buildings were on fire, right?
Nobody responded to your vid between 10:08 and 10:43, and you "hear crickets." Patience isn't your strong point, is it?
Paid government mouthpieces don't count.
It's nice to know only those with no professional training are willing to speak truth to power. (Now, even though that's sarcasm, fee free to read it like it's not; I'm tickled pink by that tactic of yours - it's attitudes like yours that made the "84% support" thing a riot.)
But sometimes it's fun to screw with the ignorant.
And is why I'm back for a brief period.
I appreciate your willingness to accept your ignorance and volunteer for taunting. You may notice that you swallowed Alex's bait - hook, line, and sinker. Even Swing left that one alone. But you're obviously not here trying to earn respect.
'Fess up - you like the abuse.
No need. The video evidence and eyewitness testimonials does the trick better than any engineer with government grants to loose or be blacklisted by their respective organization.
Classic.
Steve:
There was no missle defense other than the ones brought in after the attack, perhaps there is now or there should be,
I'd have to disagree with you on that one. Setting up any anti-air defences at the Pentagon would be a waste of resources as long as the US is not engaged in active combat with a nation capable of launching real air-strikes. You get much better value for your money if you simply modify the hijack procedures for commercial aircraft, which has already been done.
I understand Alex. I was refering to the Patriot batteries they brought in after the attacks, they were only temp
Stevew, I don't need an expert on NORAD at global security, I have NORAD's own statements and their historian as well. I also have friends in the Air Force as well as the Army's nuclear weapon procurement program so why go to someone else to read me the same things I can read from NORAD and discuss with friends that work in the establishment?
You may need someone to interpet the english language, but I don't.
Ask yourself something, who was in charge of NORAD on 9/11 and why?
I'm currently compiling the list of victims from the bomb blast in the basement of the WTC complex, in sublevel B, where the terrorists first explosive device was used. None of their testimony supports the ridiculous theory of fuel causing the massive amount of damage in the sublevel and to people. None of their testimony includes fire fighters traveling to the sub-level to put out a disel fuel fire. The smoke reported on sublevel B is not from disel fuel either. You can deny or ignore it, but you can't change that fact.
Alex, you were 1 for 3 on your Strawman lies. And even Bill O'Riley when he was on Inside Edition did a report on the links between the CIA, Oswald, and JFK. I don't think the holocaust exists? Where did you get that from? Please repost you lying scum bag of a coward! Shouldn't you be serving your country abroad?
Moon landing faked? Where do you come up with these lies, Strawman?
mbats I agree to a certain extent but not in the sublevels. The line of logic follows:
1. Does it sound like explosive? Yes.
2. Does it cause damage to structures and machines like an explosive?
Yes.
3. Does it do damage to humans like an explosive?
Yes.
4. Does it remind victims of a bomb?
Yes.
5. Does it produce smoke like a transformer explosion or jet fuel for that matter?
No.
6. Would an explosive device be used to help demolish the towers?
Yes. Especially in the sublevels in and around the core.
7. Was the sound heard by other sources not in the sublevels prior to impact?
Yes.
Conclusion: some type of explosive device was used in the subbasement. No theory, just fact. You can jabber on until the cows come home about who put it there, where it came from, how it got in there, etc. But you can't dispute that fact.
Oh and you can thank Douglas Feith at the Pentagon for the bogus intel on Iraq and Al-Queida when the WMD lie didn't quite pan out! Who is that guy working for to lie to America to justify war?
Now Nesync, here at SLC, those were bolts,transformers, pop cans, collapsing floors! ROFLMAO. Great find.
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=yIgoXQWiSlM
But strange bunks, I don't hear any reports of bolts, transformers, or pop cans from those who were there, those who were filming, and those who were victims. I wonder how you arrive at those 'excuses' for the statements on the video. Now why would you try to lie about what all those people experienced?
Oh and one other point, MBATS, you can hear explosion. But when you feel the explosion from the concussive force you must state exactly what it was.
Again great find, Nesync. That is going up at www.911truth.ning.com
sd still trying to pass off your bs as the truth LOL you get more pathetic every day and still no proof or list of engineers to back up your how to say nothing in 5000 words.
http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01
I listened to the tapes and most of these people reacted like most people when comfronted by the unthinkable, then grounding 4700 planes, something else that has never happened before. Once they got their wits about themselfs they did an excellent job
When dealing with a stiualtion that was unthinkable, people hesitate before they react and it doesn't take much to cause a domino effect. NORAD was not tied into the FAA computer system before 911 making it difficult if not impossible to positivly identify aircraft till most were on the ground. Trying to cordinate the FAA, the Airforce and Norad is a daunting task
I would love to see what you would do if you were in the position of these folks but most like you are not qualified. The first and formost thing you have to take in to concideration is that the pilots had no rules for engagement which means that the pilots could do nothing till they have rules of engagement. There were no rules for the airforce to shoot down Amercian civilian planes.
With every post you make you splatter your ignorance all over this blob, it is amazing you can find your way to the head in the morning
Yeah, it's beyond ridiculous. There's no other argument that showcases swing's ignorance quite as effectively as his "bombs-in-da-basement" nonsense. Especially when he starts trying to explain how severing the core in the basement would cause the building to collapse from the top. The sheer ignorance of basic physics/mechanics required to believe something like that is just mind-numbing.
Never mind that if explosives had be used in the basements to sever the core there wouldn't be any witnesses because they'd be DEAD.
Do I have to point out the obvious?
Swing from video evidence alone you can see significant portions of the cores of both buildings to be standing for 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Nice trick for something that was "exploded" first!
No, it was the outer wall that fell first and that took down the core and it is clearly evident from any of the videos of the collapse. So you will have to pull something else out your ass.
Hey Swing. Why not take this core thing up with those engineers you have found that support controlled demolition.
WHAT! can't find any! What's with that?
Check this out.
At Iwon Shout Out on President Bush
http://messages.iwon.com/jsp/boardview.jsp?bid=577
This particular post http://messages.iwon.com/jsp/topicview.jsp?tid=748505 says the WH produced dummy photos of Bush in the school to lead people of track.
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/bush_school_photos_2.html
Sorry links did not come out correctly
Hmmm how many of those 'experts' you keep pushing suffered as the victims did in the basement?
Go ahead, start listing those engineers who were in the basement and suffered the result of the explosions in the basement. Or better yet, list those expert engineers who were in the basement and suffered the results of jet fuel cascading all the way down to the sublevel without any firemen worried a bit about it?
I've got one engineer who suffered the results of that explosive device and thought it was another truck bomb how many do you have?
In summary, the destruction of the towers started in the sublevels. The collapse began higher up.
SLC: Where fact is fiction and fiction is fact!
Any one of the posted engineers is far more knowledgable than you are.
Does this one engineer have a name? Why don't you have him post here for all to see? What is his specialty?
Given that they are dealing with the mechanics of building collapse, one would imagine that having an "expert" in civil or structural engineering would be more relevant, but in fact, out of the 139,000 members of the American Society of Civil Engineers, the most prominent civil engineering organization in the country, not a single member has publicly joined the toofers or endorsed their findings.
SD= nothing but lies and BS
It's funny how Swing Dangler suddenly has all these anonymous friends that were in perfect position to corroborate the conspiracy story -- none of whom dare come forward on their own, of course. All this crap has been discussed before, and I don't recall Swingy mentioning these "friends" then.
LOL they are part of his vivid imagination.
SD= nothing but lies and BS
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