Uncle Fetzer in LA
I haven't watched it all the way through, but it starts with Fetzer's macho assertion that if he'd been on a plane hijacked by Arabs with boxcutters, he and the other passengers would have beaten them to death with their luggage.
posted by Pat @ 9:26 AM
20 comments
20 Comments:
Like hey, man, he could have, I mean, like you know, Fetzer does have a lot of baggage you know?
he says:"they would have beaten them to death with their luggage."
I wonder if this guy has ever looked into pyschology. Studies have shown that people are extremely complaisant with orders. They do what they are told. I'm reminded of the experiment done is the 50's or 60's with the "Q&A shock machine".
My brother went through SWAT and police training, and one of things that they covered a lot was hand to hand combat with someone with a knife.
The key to that kind of fight, is to realize that you are going to get cut, it's inevitable, but you don't have a choice. Only a few of his classmates were able to come to this realization. Most of them were too afraid and couldn't properly disarm the attacker.
He's purely ignorant.
Everyone is a Monday Morning Chuck Norris.
Passengers on the LIRR took out Colin Ferguson and he had a gun and was shooting.
Christ, do I have to explain EVERYTHING to you? It's obvious you don't have even the most basic understanding of crisis situations. Being a hostage, and being used for target practice by a raging lunatic, are two completely different things. Tha vast majority of people WILL NOT fight back against hostage-takers because they can delude themselves into thinking that they have a chance. Even people who logicaly know that they WILL be executed are usualy hesitant to fight back, even though it would increase their chances of survival. Instead they delude themselves into thinking that their captor may have a last-second change of heart.
Colin Ferguson on the other hand simply pulled out a weapon and started blasting away at anyone who was white. That sort of event tends to get peoples adrenaline flowing pretty good. It also makes it much harder to delude yourself into beleiving that you'll live through the ordeal. Meaning you're much more likely to try and fight back. You've got nothing to lose.
Joan, the standard advice given to travelers before 9-11 was to obey the hijackers and not anger them. This was seen as the most likely route to survival. Ferguson, on the other hand, was methodically killing people, so there was no option but to attack him (and the other passengers attacked him while he was reloading).
This (Fetzer's presentation) is one of the reasons that I call for Fetzer's resignation from ST911.
Passengers on the LIRR took out Colin Ferguson and he had a gun and was shooting.
I'm surprised you don't but Furgeson's claim that everyone was shooting him and he was just defending himself.
The key words here are 'was shooting'. Once you start firing and demonstrate no willingness to stop, you pretty much give those who were hoping, in fear for their lives, that the incident would end with you gone and them still alive. Now you have people with nothing to lose. Hijacking was like that prior to 911.
"The key words here are 'was shooting'. Once you start firing and demonstrate no willingness to stop, you pretty much give those who were hoping, in fear for their lives, that the incident would end with you gone and them still alive."
Even then, Mr. Ferguson reloaded twice. If he had been able to get off that many shots on an aircraft before being successfully confronted he would in all likelyhood have caused the aircraft to crash. The comparision fails on all levels.
That sort of event tends to get peoples adrenaline flowing pretty good. It also makes it much harder to delude yourself into beleiving that you'll live through the ordeal.
At 30,000 feet, you just disproved your own point.
Let me just say here that I have no reason to doubt Fetzer's personal courage. He was in the Marines, and they don't take a lot of wimps. My point is that he's overlaying 9/12 attitudes on 9/11.
At 30,000 feet, you just disproved your own point.
Since you're ignorant of all things historical, I'll let you on a little secret: a vast majority of airplane hijackings had the the hijackers wanting their goals met, and then letting the plane go. Last I checked, most didn't hijack the plane to use it as a cruise missle.
Pat,
As you know, I'm not slamming Fetzer on his courage. Fetzer has demonstrated to a small degree in this video (and to a much larger degree at other public appearances) his lack of use of careful words.
As someone who agrees that he raises legitimate questions about JFK, 9/11, etc. I think he's an outstanding example of how combining a knowledgable researcher with a gregarious older guy does not necessarily equal a good PR person.
The reasons to doubt the 9/11 story can be propounded without resorting to speculation, which is exactly what you are catching by Fetzer and criticizing.
Anyone wanna go 10 - 1 with a list of debunkings?
10: they were not on a passenger manifest.
isn't this simply false?
9: none of them were subject to an autopsy
were there any autopsy-able bodies?
8: 5 - 7 of them have turned up alive
we already know that's false
i could go on, but i have important stuff to do :-P
At 30,000 feet, you just disproved your own point.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Fear causes people to be heroic. Most people in that situation would have beaten them do death. He's not boasting or being macho. People become macho in that situation. Besides he doesn't talk about himself specifically, he says "any group of american passengers". Why don't you disprove his claims?
Childish idiot.
In response to the guy talking about people following orders, that's about following orders of people in authority. People with suits in laboratories. You are their guests. However, when a plane is hijacked...you aren't their guests and they aren't in authority.
Fear causes people to be heroic. Most people in that situation would have beaten them do death.
Well, thanks for your opinion numbnuts, but I think my qualifications in the field of Applied Ballistics and Crisis Managment beat out your experience as a pot smoking teenager on your parents basement couch. No, people do not get heroic in these situations. And the ones who do generaly end up either getting themselves killed or getting other people killed. If you hadn't gotten all your military knowledge from playing Ghost Recon on your X-Box, you might understand that.
Fear causes people to be heroic. Most people in that situation would have beaten them do death. He's not boasting or being macho. People become macho in that situation. Besides he doesn't talk about himself specifically, he says "any group of american passengers". Why don't you disprove his claims?
Childish idiot.
That's why only one of the planes fought back, right?
Oh and about this nonsense:
In response to the guy talking about people following orders, that's about following orders of people in authority. People with suits in laboratories. You are their guests. However, when a plane is hijacked...you aren't their guests and they aren't in authority.
How do you think authority is derived, Einstein? Authority comes from an inbalance in power. Your boss is an authority because he has the power to fire you. A cop is an authority because he has the power to arrest you. A soldier on duty is an authority because he has the power to kill you. And yes, a hijacker is an authority because he has the power to slit your throat from ear to ear, or failing that, push a button and vaporize you, your wife, your children, and everyone else around you. So yes, people DO follow their instructions, and they do so quite readily.
We are not just talking knives and box cutters but there were reports of some sort of gas being used, mace or pepper spray.
It's easy to be macho in hindsight, these people had no reason to believe that anything but a standard hijacking was in progress and they would be held for some time until demands were met.
The people on flight 93 fought back only after knowing the flight was a suicide flight.
So let test Fetzys assertion and have him square off with a suicidal terrorist with a knife and mace and Fetzer can use his carry-on.
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