Monday, July 03, 2006

Follow the Money

An interesting little bit on Loose Change, from some on-line newspaper in Singapore.

Added Mr Haverkamp: 'The most revealing page on the producers' website is the 'Loose Change store', which lets you order their DVDs and T-shirts.

'Instead of investigating 9/11, perhaps someone should look into how much money these guys will make.

'Conspiracy sells.'

In the US, online activists at www.911myths.com have slammed what they consider Loose Change's 'distorted claims' and 'factual errors'. There's even a website called Loose Trains which mocks the entire video.

61 Comments:

At 03 July, 2006 20:32, Blogger Manny said...

I always just assumed that al Qaeda was banking them directly. If they make enough to give Osama a return on his investment that would just be a bonus.

 
At 03 July, 2006 20:38, Blogger shawn said...

ReOpen 9/11, an online grassroots movement, calls Loose Change 'the best video on 9/11', while a team of mostly US journalists and researchers under the banner name 'WantToKnow.info' say the documentary is 'incredibly powerful' and 'reliable'.

These people don't have much going for them if Loose change is the "best video" and "reliable".

 
At 04 July, 2006 01:36, Blogger roger_sq said...

'Instead of investigating 9/11, perhaps someone should look into how much money these guys will make.

I'm going to estimate it at about $39 a day but that is probably on the high side.

shawn, have you ordered your loose change t-shirt?

I haven't.

Can you believe they banned me for not being islamic enough?

fucking traitors.

 
At 04 July, 2006 02:16, Blogger JPSlovjanski said...

What is the URL for "Loose Trains"? I eagerly consume anything that mocks those three stooges.

 
At 04 July, 2006 05:16, Blogger Avery Dylan said...

Like, Hey man, everybody wants a shirt, I mean can't you see the memorial, in September when we have shirts, I mean, everywhere in the crowd, I mean, what better way to show that I mean, there was Controlled Demolition, and I mean, Marvin Bush did it - all the cameras will be on me, I mean us, and the trooth movement.

Me and Jason were gonna make like hats, but I mean, we got into a fight, trying to decide if the words go on the front or the back, and then I said, it should I mean, go on the front, and like we need to include instructions with the hat so they know I mean, which way to wear them.

I mean, those mourning people at the memorial are gonna be so impressed, they'll demand that the commission be reopened.

 
At 04 July, 2006 05:27, Blogger shawn said...

shawn, have you ordered your loose change t-shirt?

Who hasn't?

Can you believe they banned me for not being islamic enough?

I'm sure they did.

 
At 04 July, 2006 06:45, Blogger JoanBasil said...

When the new Loose Change 3 comes out, I'll buy one copy from Louder than Words on-line and then the other copies I buy I'll buy for $1.99 on e-bay.

I don't think they make much on T-shirts.

 
At 04 July, 2006 07:26, Blogger Avery Dylan said...

Like, hey, Joan, like, I mean, how does LC3 turn out?

 
At 04 July, 2006 08:41, Blogger James B. said...

Roger, you will get no sympathy from me, they banned me the second day I was on their forum for no reason at all, and I only came on there because they were talking about this site.

Remember, they are just asking questions and want a free exchange of ideas.

 
At 04 July, 2006 10:52, Blogger CHF said...

Frankly, I love the fact that Loose Change is the most "reliable" thing the "truthers" have in their arsenal.

They debunk themselves more often than not.

 
At 04 July, 2006 13:10, Blogger BoggleHead said...

what about the fact that two of the hijackers lived with an FBI informant in counter-terrorism?

 
At 04 July, 2006 13:11, Blogger BoggleHead said...

and the fact that another of the hijackers got a $70,000 at the convenience store of a consultant for an american defense contractor

 
At 04 July, 2006 13:15, Blogger BoggleHead said...

and the reports that some of the hijackers trained with the US military?

and the fact that 43 lbs of heroin was confiscated on the lear jet of the owner of the flight school where some of the terrorists trained?

or that the guy who leased the planes the terrorists trained on was a partner in a casino boat with that defense contractor consultant at the convenience store?

or the fact that the FBI informant in san diego lied to the FBI about how he met the hijackers?

or the fact that he eventually admitted he met them through a suspected saudi spy?

or the fact that a venice cab driver says he helped load a large chest with the help of a man he identified as zacharias moussaoui for someone he thought was a saudi prince he drove to the airport from the home of the defense contractor consultant / convenience store owner?

 
At 04 July, 2006 13:21, Blogger BoggleHead said...

or the fact that the owner of Huffman aviation (where two of the lead hijackers trained) made a $1,000,000 "loan" to Jerry Falwell that Jerry never felt the need to pay back?

or the fact that some of the hijackers were identified as having visited Jack Abramoff's SunCruz casino?

or the fact that a plane painted up to look like a US dept of Homeland Security plane that was registered to the airport where Huffman Aviation operated out of was captured in Mexico with 5.5 tons of cocaine aboard?

or the fact that the CEO of the other firm in partnership with the firm registered at Huffman was a Tom Delay appointee to the Republican Business Advisory council? And that the firm claims to specialize in counter-terrorism? Or that this company was a penny stock fraud that bilked investors to the tune of $40,000,000?

And that the defense contractor that hired the convenience store owner was involved in propping up this penny stock fraud by claiming it would buy half a Billion dollars of its non-existant product?

 
At 04 July, 2006 13:25, Blogger BoggleHead said...

I thought you guys wanted to "Follow the Money"

 
At 04 July, 2006 14:48, Blogger apathoid said...

or the fact that the owner of Huffman aviation (where two of the lead hijackers trained) made a $1,000,000 "loan" to Jerry Falwell that Jerry never felt the need to pay back?......

.....And that the defense contractor that hired the convenience store owner was involved in propping up this penny stock fraud by claiming it would buy half a Billion dollars of its non-existant product?


Where the hell do you get this stuff, the National Enquirer??

or the fact that the CEO of the other firm in partnership with the firm registered at Huffman was a
Tom Delay appointee to the Republican Business Advisory council ......


Back to the six degrees of separation again, I see. I'm gonna call my good friend Peyton Manning and ask for a copy of the Colts playbook, after all I know someone who knows Peyton. That makes us buddies!!

And you wonder why noone replies to your posts.....

 
At 04 July, 2006 14:56, Blogger shawn said...

And you wonder why noone replies to your posts.....

The best part is he at least tried to paint himself as a rational person in his first posts. He filled them with a lot of smart-sounding words and didn't make any judgments on he evidence (or so he said).

When the new Loose Change 3 comes out, I'll buy one copy from Louder than Words on-line and then the other copies I buy I'll buy for $1.99 on e-bay.


Well it's nice to know they still have theire disciples.

 
At 04 July, 2006 15:40, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Where the hell do you get this stuff, the National Enquirer??"

what about the fact that two of the hijackers lived with an FBI informant in counter-terrorism?

--- part II section IV of the joint congressional inquiry into intelligence failures

and the fact that another of the hijackers got a $70,000 at the convenience store of a consultant for an american defense contractor

--- 9/11 Commission hearings held up the receipt

and the reports that some of the hijackers trained with the US military?

--- Newsweek (see 911Myths for claims that this report cites records with discrepancies---although they ultimately conclude it's possible but not abnormal)

and the fact that 43 lbs of heroin was confiscated on the lear jet of the owner of the flight school where some of the terrorists trained?

--- usdoj.gov ; Orlando Sentinel

or that the guy who leased the planes the terrorists trained on was a partner in a casino boat with that defense contractor consultant at the convenience store?

--- SEC Filings as reported by 10kwizard, Daniel Hopsicker, former NBC and PBS Producer

or the fact that the FBI informant in san diego lied to the FBI about how he met the hijackers?

--- Joint Congressional Inquiry into Intelligence Failures


or the fact that he eventually admitted he met them through a suspected saudi spy?

--- LA Times

or the fact that a venice cab driver says he helped load a large chest with the help of a man he identified as zacharias moussaoui for someone he thought was a saudi prince he drove to the airport from the home of the defense contractor consultant / convenience store owner?

--- Daniel Hopsicker

or the fact that the owner of Huffman aviation (where two of the lead hijackers trained) made a $1,000,000 "loan" to Jerry Falwell that Jerry never felt the need to pay back?

--- Daniel Hopsicker

or the fact that some of the hijackers were identified as having visited Jack Abramoff's SunCruz casino?

--- St Petersburg Times (911Myths says despite the eyewitnesses, it's not absolutely certain, since the FBI consfiscated the video tapes and has refused to say)

or the fact that a plane painted up to look like a US dept of Homeland Security plane that was registered to the airport where Huffman Aviation operated out of was captured in Mexico with 5.5 tons of cocaine aboard?

--- Tampa Tribune

or the fact that the CEO of the other firm in partnership with the firm registered at Huffman was a Tom Delay appointee to the Republican Business Advisory council? And that the firm claims to specialize in counter-terrorism? Or that this company was a penny stock fraud that bilked investors to the tune of $40,000,000?

--- Variously sourced depending on the claim, including the Tampa
Tribune

And that the defense contractor that hired the convenience store owner was involved in propping up this penny stock fraud by claiming it would buy half a Billion dollars of its non-existant product?

--- Press release from Titan's (the defense contractor's) website

 
At 04 July, 2006 15:40, Blogger BG said...

great comments, booglehead

 
At 04 July, 2006 15:44, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"or the fact that the CEO of the other firm in partnership with the firm registered at Huffman was a
Tom Delay appointee to the Republican Business Advisory council ......

Back to the six degrees of separation again, I see. I'm gonna call my good friend Peyton Manning and ask for a copy of the Colts playbook, after all I know someone who knows Peyton. That makes us buddies!!

And you wonder why noone replies to your posts....."

Jeb Bush flew for free on that CEO's charter service. I thought we were supposed to follow the money.

 
At 04 July, 2006 15:45, Blogger default.xbe said...

what about the fact that two of the hijackers lived with an FBI informant in counter-terrorism?

stop bringing this up, it doesnt mean shit, so they lived with him, big deal

did they tell him about their plans?
did he tell the fbi what they told him?

you need to answer both those questions before it becomes a meaningful point, and yet you dodge these questions at every turn



almost all of your other points are non sequitors, what does heroine in a private jet of someoen who probably never even met any of the hijackers have to do with anything?

 
At 04 July, 2006 15:48, Blogger shawn said...

you need to answer both those questions before it becomes a meaningful point, and yet you dodge these questions at every turn

I think he'll stick with making an insinuation without buttressing any points, he's done a good job of it thus far.

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:02, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Administration and the FBI have objected to the [Congressional] Joint Inquiry’s request to interview the informant… Known information relies solely on FBI documents."

--- Congressional Joint Inquiry into 911

"The informant also acknowledged that al-Hazmi had contacts with at least four individuals the informant knew were of interest to the FBI and about whom the informant had previously reported to the FBI."

--- Congressional Joint Inquiry into 911

"The informant has made numerous inconsistent statements to the FBI during the course of interviews after September 11, 2001… the FBI has acknowledged that there are 'significant inconsistencies' in the informant’s statements about these contacts."

--- Congressional Joint Inquiry into 911

"During the post 9-11 investigation “the FBI concedes that the hijackers may have known the informant [Shaikh] months earlier than the informant admitted.”"

--- Congressional Joint Inquiry into 911

"Shaikh also happens to be a 'tested' undercover 'asset' who had been working closely with the FBI office in San Diego on terrorism cases."

--- Newsweek

"Abdussattar Shaikh… was a long-time undercover FBI counterterrorism informant in regular contact with… the bureau's San Diego office."

--- Institute for Public Affairs, September 29, 2003

"Next door neighbor [of Shaikh] Deborah Fortner said she is sure that Atta visited Shaikh's home during the time the two suspected hijackers Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar lived there… "He definitely was here," said Fortner, pointing to Atta's picture, which appeared along with the other 18 suspected hijackers in Friday's San Diego Union-Tribune. "His eyes you cannot mistake them."

Two other neighbors of Shaikh, who lives on a cul-de-sac in suburban Lemon Grove, also said Friday that they told the FBI nearly two weeks ago that they recognized Atta as having visited Shaik's home.

Dennis and Marna Adair said they didn't know Atta's name and had not yet seen his photo in news accounts when they first picked him out from the photographs shown to them by FBI agents who interviewed Shaikh and his neighbors repeatedly in the days immediately after the terrorist attacks.

"It was a week ago last Monday [Sept 17, 2001]," said Marna Adair. When agents showed her several pictures, she said, "I told them, 'That one definitely,' " she said pointing to Atta's photo…

neighbors… said they saw him [Atta] often enough that they would exchange greetings. And they recalled that he was friendly and more outgoing than many of the Muslim men who stayed with Shaikh.

The houses of Shaikh, Fortner and the Adairs are clustered close together around a small private drive that extends off a residential street in the working-class suburb of Lemon Grove.

Fortner and the Adairs said they have spoken repeatedly with FBI agents in the last three weeks about their recollections…

In explaining why they went public, the neighbors also said they have been frustrated with Shaikh and what they perceive as his unwillingness to be more forthcoming with them and the media."

--- San Jose Mercury News September 29, 2001

"Although Hazmi's housemate [Shaikh] claims that the 'Hani' whom Hazmi introduced him [on Dec 8, 2000] to is not the same person pictured in Hanjour's photograph, we have little doubt that the housemate did in fact see Hanjour on the day he and Hazmi left San Diego."

--- 911 Commission Report Notes

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:09, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Administration and the FBI have objected to the [Congressional] Joint Inquiry’s request to interview the informant

Known information relies solely on FBI documents

had contacts with at least four individuals the informant knew were of interest to the FBI and about whom the informant had previously reported to the FBI

The informant has made numerous inconsistent statements to the FBI

the FBI has acknowledged that there are 'significant inconsistencies' in the informant’s statements about these contacts

the hijackers may have known the informant [Shaikh] months earlier than the informant admitted

'tested' undercover 'asset' who had been working closely with the FBI office in San Diego on terrorism cases

FBI counterterrorism informant in regular contact with… the bureau's San Diego office

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:11, Blogger shawn said...

So your proof is that the informant lied to the FBI? How does that support your belief in a conspiracy in any way?

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:26, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"So your proof is that the informant lied to the FBI? How does that support your belief in a conspiracy in any way?"

Well he lied about when and how he met the hijackers.

As well as claiming to have met fewer than he did.

When did he in fact meet the hijackers?

Months earlier.

How did he meet the hijackers?

Remember the movie "Fahrenheit 9/11"? Michael Moore focuses a lot on Bandar Bush.

Well Abdussattar Shaikh met the hijackers through a Saudi spy in the employ of Bandar "Bush" (equivalent to a CIA station chief, but for Saudi Arabia).

The guy's name is Omar al Bayoumi, and THAT fact is substantiated by the LA Times (among other sources).

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:30, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Omar al Bayoumi gave them free money and opened up bank accounts for them

Here's an MSNBC article about how "magnanimous" he was.

The article is called "The Saudi Money Trail"

So I guess you have to be a big hypocrite to ask how it's connected to 9/11 in a thread that's called "Follow the Money"

http://www.msnbc.com/avantgo/839269.htm

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:31, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Questions over the money trail have enflamed a fierce, behind-the-scenes struggle between two congressional committees looking into 9-11 and the Bush administration. Senate Intelligence Committee co-chairman Robert Graham of Florida, a Democrat, and Richard Shelby of Alabama, a Republican, believe that the FBI failed to fully investigate 9-11. The lawmakers suspect that the administration does not want to look too closely at Saudi connections to the hijackers. The White House clearly fears jeopardizing U.S.-Saudi relations. In addition to Saudi oil, the United States needs Saudi bases to stage a possible invasion of Iraq. Administration officials reluctantly confirmed to NEWSWEEK that money had moved from Princess Haifa's account to al-Bayoumi, but they stressed that they do not know the purpose of the payments or whether any Saudi officials were even aware of them. "The facts are unclear, and there's no need to rush to judgment," said one administration official. In meetings with intelligence committee leaders, Vice President Dick Cheney, Attorney General John Ashcroft and others have adamantly rejected attempts to declassify the information, citing national-security concerns."

Ibid

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:41, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Blacked out in the report is a 28-page section that the officials say criticizes Saudi Arabia's government and details its lack of interest in tackling Muslim extremism."

--- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/23/terror/main564650.shtml

That's quite a lack of interest? Can we see it? (snicker)

 
At 04 July, 2006 16:45, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Nobody to blame here. Move along.

It's been discovered that the blame really lies with everyone.... rather like a quantum probability wave..... all spread out and diffuse..... riiiiight.......

Pay no attention to the words behind the 28 page black curtain.

 
At 04 July, 2006 17:25, Blogger shawn said...

Pay no attention to the words behind the 28 page black curtain.

Kinda like how they black out pages in UFO documents. So what you're saying is the government actually has UFOs.

Also, I think you're on to something here with the Saudis funding terrorism. I don't think anyone has ever thought of that. What with Osama being a Saudi, and most of the hijackers being from Saudi Arabia, it's weird that you're the only one to think of this.

Oh...wait.

It's been discovered that the blame really lies with everyone

Well adults blame whoever committed an act. Children (and leftists and extreme rightists) blame everyone but the perpetrators. It's society! It's the government!

I don't blame the US for dropping the ball on Pearl Harbor, I blame the Japanese.

 
At 04 July, 2006 17:29, Blogger apathoid said...

Boggs,
You'll never get anywhere questioning every single detail of every aspect of 9/11. You'll always find inconsistencies and oddities. Its funny that you mention quantum mechanics, because its similar to what you are doing. You find every possible way to get from A to B looking at all the permutations of various theories to see how they fit in without considering the simplest explanation. One small inconistency doesnt nullify the overwhelming evidence at hand. We had this discussion in the SLC forum. You are overanalyzing everything dude.....thats why you still dont have a theory.

 
At 04 July, 2006 17:47, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Boggs,
You'll never get anywhere questioning every single detail of every aspect of 9/11. You'll always find inconsistencies and oddities. Its funny that you mention quantum mechanics, because its similar to what you are doing. You find every possible way to get from A to B looking at all the permutations of various theories to see how they fit in without considering the simplest explanation. One small inconistency doesnt nullify the overwhelming evidence at hand. We had this discussion in the SLC forum. You are overanalyzing everything dude.....thats why you still dont have a theory."

US-Saudi drug trafficking was not a theory?

 
At 04 July, 2006 18:01, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Also, here's a theory.

It's not exactly highly supported but it has some information leading that direction.

Two separate links from another FBI informant to Abdussattar Shaikh.

This FBI informant's name is Sam Koutschesfehani.

link 1) he's a felon for importing arabs illegally using phony visas from professors in the san diego area (Abdussattar Shaikh's FBI cover was as a "professor" in the San Diego area----he would seem to match this description)

link 2) they both claimed phony university degrees. Abdu Shaikh claimed to be a Professor at San Diego state (lie) and claimed to be a "professor" at United States International University (a CIA front---not a real school, just a mailbox essentially) as well as "Vice President for International Projects" at American Commonwealth University which used to be named William Lyon University (and which also apparently does not exist except on paper).

William Lyon was a PSYOPs general (or some other such high rank) in the Air Force and one of Arnold Schwarzeneggar's biggest campaign contributors.

The other FBI informant, Sam Koutchesfehani, was involved in real estate deals (a hotel) with another "professor" at the phony United States International University, named Tamer Tamer Salameh.

You'd think meeting someone from that university would make it a small world since it doesn't exist---it's just a CIA front.

Koutschesfehani also went to a phony diploma mill named Newport University, another likely CIA front, claiming a degree in Psychology.

What's interesting is that Sam Koutchesfehani is a former Savak agent (Iranian intelligence under the Shah).

And just as Abdussattar Shaikh was playing landlord to some of the hijackers, Sam Koutschesfehani was the landlord for the Heaven's Gate cult.

Raising the striking question whether an FBI informant living with the hijackers in San Diego was brushing shoulders through CIA diploma mills with, or maybe had the same handler as, a guy involved in brainwashing.

http://www.madcowprod.com/episode6.wmv

 
At 04 July, 2006 18:04, Blogger BoggleHead said...

I sure spliced the grammar in the last sentence of that post.

But anyway, another interesting tidbit is that the Heaven's Gate cult left Koutchesfehani 6 figures of wealth.

Why did they leave it to their landlord? Nobody does that, do they?

You can even tell he's lying to ABC news about this part. That's a tip for all you poker players out there.

 
At 04 July, 2006 18:21, Blogger shawn said...

US-Saudi drug trafficking was not a theory?

It is a theory, not a very good one, but you're right, it is a theory.

Why did they leave it to their landlord? Nobody does that, do they?

Until they went to the great beyond, I'd have said "nobody thinks a comet means a UFO is coming to bring us to space and thus we have to chop off our whangs, dress in identical clothing, and overdose to kill ourselves."

 
At 04 July, 2006 18:25, Blogger BoggleHead said...

What of Sam Koutchesfehani's ACTIVE role as an FBI informant at the TIME of the suicides?

 
At 04 July, 2006 18:26, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Did it occur to you that both the hijackers on 9/11 and the Heaven's Gate cultists might have been subjected to.....


brainwashing?

 
At 04 July, 2006 18:27, Blogger BoggleHead said...

I only ask because half the people will say it's obvious and half the people will say it's a....

"conspiracy theory"

 
At 04 July, 2006 19:49, Blogger shawn said...

Did it occur to you that both the hijackers on 9/11 and the Heaven's Gate cultists might have been subjected to.....


brainwashing?


Were some folks brainwashed by Applewhite? Certainly. But all of them? Doubtful, some people are kooks to begin with and need no urging.

I think it's a very fearful way to go about the world thinking that any people who do something so monstrous were insane/brainwashed/etc. It speaks of a general ignorance of the worst parts of humankind that the greatest architects of terror throughout history can just be brushed away as nuts. Is it possible the al-Qaeda hijackers were brainwashed? Yes. Do I find it probable? Not for all of them. All cults (and al-Qaeda is one, it is the spiritual successor to the Assassins) have at least some aspect of mind-control, using some type of religious zealotry. Their recruits come to them or are already of the mind to join the cause.

 
At 04 July, 2006 19:49, Blogger shawn said...

I only ask because half the people will say it's obvious and half the people will say it's a....

"conspiracy theory"


Half will say it's obvious? It'd be sad if so. It's much easier to write off evil as brainwashing.

 
At 04 July, 2006 19:58, Blogger nesNYC said...

which mocks the entire video.

When one lacks the ammo, the absurd definitely makes more sense.

 
At 04 July, 2006 19:59, Blogger shawn said...

When one lacks the ammo, the absurd definitely makes more sense.

Nesnyc, do you even understand irony?

 
At 04 July, 2006 21:08, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Half will say it's obvious? It'd be sad if so. It's much easier to write off evil as brainwashing."

I agree with your earlier post that we don't necessarily have to say someone who commits suicide for a cause is brainwashed.

But maybe if I had put it like this, so it doesn't sound like I'm trying to claim it's a certainty the 9/11 hijackers were "brainwashed" in the sense of sophisticated, well-researched techniques...

...let's just say instead that MK-Ultra is not so much a conspiracy theory as a conspiracy near-certainty.

Here's where we see people dividing half and half. And here's the part where you write it off all too easily.

 
At 04 July, 2006 21:27, Blogger shawn said...

...let's just say instead that MK-Ultra is not so much a conspiracy theory as a conspiracy near-certainty.

Well MKULTRA actually existed. There's no evidence the project continued after the 60s.

 
At 05 July, 2006 00:15, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Well MKULTRA actually existed. There's no evidence the project continued after the 60s."

True. Motive, means and opportunity do no even begin to suggest how you could figure things out beyond a reasonable doubt.

 
At 05 July, 2006 00:17, Blogger BoggleHead said...

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/070306.html

On Oct. 29, 2004, just four days before the U.S. presidential election, al-Qaeda leader Osama bin-Laden released a videotape denouncing George W. Bush. Some Bush supporters quickly spun the diatribe as “Osama’s endorsement of John Kerry.” But behind the walls of the CIA, analysts had concluded the opposite: that bin-Laden was trying to help Bush gain a second term.

[...]

Suskind wrote that the CIA analysts based their troubling assessment on classified information, but the analysts still puzzled over exactly why bin-Laden wanted Bush to stay in office.

According to Suskind’s book, CIA analysts had spent years “parsing each expressed word of the al-Qaeda leader and his deputy, [Ayman] Zawahiri. What they’d learned over nearly a decade is that bin-Laden speaks only for strategic reasons.

[...]

“At the five o’clock meeting, [deputy CIA director] John McLaughlin opened the issue with the consensus view: ‘Bin-Laden certainly did a nice favor today for the President.’”

McLaughlin’s comment drew nods from CIA officers at the table.

[... etc etc etc ...]

 
At 05 July, 2006 07:17, Blogger Abby Scott said...

what about the fact that two of the hijackers lived with an FBI informant in counter-terrorism?

Bogglehead, you're spamming. Makes me think that you don't care about people answering direct points. You just want justification for "grinz".

Also, you and I have been over the above many times. And I am completely justified in saying "so what."

Before you jump to radical conclusions because one hijacker was seen in a casino in the same state in which a member of government owned a different casino, find out some things on your own. What is the FBI's typical MO? What other things could contribute to mistakes made?

You are pulling many connections out of the air and looking only to skeptics to follow up on them. What is your goal? A new investigation or to win an arguement by spamming?

 
At 05 July, 2006 08:02, Blogger Alex said...

Motive, means and opportunity do no even begin to suggest how you could figure things out beyond a reasonable doubt.

I had the motive, means, AND opportunity to rob a bank. In your world, I'm now guilty untill proven innocent.

 
At 05 July, 2006 15:57, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Okay this is in response to Abby.

I *know* this FBI informant has an embarrassing connection linking the administration to the Saudis.

http://www.msnbc.com/avantgo/839269.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/23/terror/m

I know this because 28 pages is blacked out of the report....

...and the guy who blacked them out (Senator Bob Graham) SAYS the administration is covering up an embarrassing connection.

As far as I've gone in just this post, there's no conjecture, just proven fact.

It's determining what that means that requires conjecture (various initial hypotheses that one then attempts to support in evidence).


"With Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal in Washington today to meet with President Bush to discuss suggestions that the Saudis played a role in the 9/11 attacks, US Senator Charles Schumer appealed directly to Faisal to turn over Omar al-Bayoumi to US authorities. New evidence appeared last week in the report released by Congress on the 9/11 attacks that linked al-Bayoumi to two of the hijackers, al-Qaeda and the Saudi government."

http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01901.html

 
At 05 July, 2006 16:04, Blogger BoggleHead said...

July 29, 2003
Foreign Minister Saud Al-Faisal
c/o Prince Bandar Bin Sultan Bin Abdul Aziz
601 New Hampshire Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20037

Dear Prince Saud:

On the eve of your visit with President Bush, I write to urge you to turn over Omar al-Bayoumi to Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) officials as a sign of goodwill between our two nations as we work together to win the war on terror.

As you are aware, the Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities Before and After the Terrorist Attacks of September 2001 uncovered several leads linking al-Bayoumi to the hijackers responsible for the attacks of 9-11, al Qaeda and the Saudi government. Reports also indicate that al-Bayoumi has returned to Saudi Arabia.

Al-Bayoumi’s intimate association with 9-11 hijackers Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, terrorists to whom he gave financial assistance before the attacks, is of great interest to investigators. In a matter that is a grave concern for both of our nations, it appears that Saudi officials may have been responsible for introducing the three men in early 2000 because, according to the FBI, al-Bayoumi met the hijackers in a “somewhat suspicious meeting” immediately after al-Bayoumi had a closed-door consultation at the Saudi consulate in Los Angeles. Al-Bayoumi has also been labeled as an intelligence officer of Saudi Arabia or another nation by one of the FBI’s best informants.

In the fight against terror, Saudi Foreign Policy Advisor Adel al-Jubeir has stated that the United States and Saudi Arabia “are in this together,”and Ambassador Bandar has professed “Saudi Arabia has nothing to hide.” Given the evidence, presenting al-Bayoumi to FBI officials for questioning is essential to backing up these words with deeds. In the spirit of cooperation, I also hope that when you meet, you encourage President Bush to declassify a key 28-page section from the Joint Inquiry report that deals with foreign sources of support for the 9-11 hijackers. Only with the release of this information will both of our countries know where to focus our efforts to end terror.

Both of our nations have suffered greatly as a result of terrorism and it is in both of our interests to cooperate to end it. I hope that in this spirit Saudi Arabia would turn over Omar al-Bayoumi to the FBI for questioning and you would urge President Bush to declassify the 28 pages of the Joint Inquiry’s report.

Sincerely,
Charles Schumer
U.S. Senator

http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01900.html

 
At 05 July, 2006 16:21, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"Before you jump to radical conclusions because one hijacker was seen in a casino in the same state in which a member of government owned a different casino, find out some things on your own. What is the FBI's typical MO? What other things could contribute to mistakes made?"

It's good that you understand that it's the strength of the link that must be questioned.

Obviously the stronger the link, the weaker your analogy, which is the point of your analogy right?

An intelligence officer of Saudi Arabia walked from the Saudi consulate to the restaurant where he says he "accidentally" met the hijackers before giving them thousands of dollars, opening up bank accounts for them, and setting them up with a place to live with an FBI informant whose role with the FBI was to keep an eye on Saudi terrorism suspects of college age.

When 9/11 happened, both the Saudi spy and the FBI informant lied all about it and the White House flew them out of the country.

I'm not saying their mothers' brothers' cousins' sisters' wifes' blah blah blah is the strong link.

The strong links are there, you just don't take them head on but instead seek the Kevin-Baconish ones to attack.

 
At 05 July, 2006 16:56, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Abby, your last post on this topic in the SLC forum was this (after quoting something I said).

I thought I'd give you a clearer response.

"Question is this, though. How much of that information that is redacted is information that would hurt any ongoing investigations or intelligence and how much isn't?"

It's all being held for political purposes according to Bob Graham who wrote the report.

"Why must we jump to say that they're hiding evidence of a cover up vs. hiding information that should not be in the wrong hands?"

Because the people who wrote the report say they're hiding information and that they think it should be released, silly.

"Have you asked people that have knowledge of how fbi investigations/intelligence gathering works?"

Bob Graham chairs (or did at that time chair) the Senate Intelligence Committee so obviously your point is moot.

 
At 05 July, 2006 17:06, Blogger shawn said...

An informant lying?! Well, I never!

 
At 05 July, 2006 17:24, Blogger BoggleHead said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 05 July, 2006 17:26, Blogger BoggleHead said...

Shawn, tell me about Omar al Bayoumi and how he had no role in September 11.

 
At 05 July, 2006 18:43, Blogger shawn said...

Shawn, tell me about Omar al Bayoumi and how he had no role in September 11.

There we go with proving negatives again.

 
At 05 July, 2006 20:36, Blogger BoggleHead said...

The claim that I never proved Bayoumi's involvement in 9/11 is a negative?

Some two dozen people have told me I didn't prove it so on what basis do they make that claim?

 
At 05 July, 2006 20:43, Blogger shawn said...

The claim that I never proved Bayoumi's involvement in 9/11 is a negative?

No, you told me to prove he wasn't part of 9/11. I cannot do that. You have to prove he was involved, and you have yet to do that. You don't seem to get that contact with someone does not actually make you party to their misdeeds.

 
At 05 July, 2006 21:04, Blogger BoggleHead said...

"You don't seem to get that contact with someone does not actually make you party to their misdeeds."

Ahh, but not just any old contact.

Isn't it true that the FBI said this guy is a Saudi intelligence officer?

And isn't it true that this guy walked from the Saudi consulate to a nearby restaurant where he had his first meeting with the hijackers?

And isn't it true that he then gave them bank accounts and filled them with $9,900 deposits---suspicious because $10,000 automatically triggers a bank investigation by federal law?

And isn't it true that he set them up with a place to live with his "friend", who just happens to be an FBI informant specializing in college age Saudi terrorists.... which these guys were?

This isn't any old contact. This is actually quite hospitable.

How fortunate for the hijackers to not need any form of support network from al Qaeda while they lived in the United States. It's much easier to just rely on the kindness of strange Saudi spies.

 
At 05 July, 2006 21:12, Blogger BoggleHead said...

It's good that you admit that the strength of the connection is what's important.

 

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