Sunday, July 02, 2006

What Norm Mineta Said

Norm Mineta has just become a casualty of the "Truthers"; he's going to spend the rest of his days hounded by these idiots.

James Fetzer mentioned Mineta in his interview on the Alan Colmes show:

Colmes: But what you’re saying is Dick Cheney, who served in other administrations, you’re saying he was complicit—

Fetzer: Absolutely.

Colmes:--in the bringing down of the World Trade Center, and the Pentagon, and he in fact, knew what was going on, was at the command center at the time it took place.

Fetzer: Yes. We have testimony from Norman Mineta to that effect, and did you know this, Alan, the night before, on Thursday night, I explained that on your show and the next morning he resigns.

Colmes: Well, are you suggesting that Norm Mineta resigned because of your appearance on Hannity and Colmes?

Fetzer: I’m suggesting Norman Mineta resigned because the administration didn’t want him in a public position where he’d have to respond to questions from reporters. By having him resign he becomes a private citizen and he’s no longer obligated to respond to public inquiries.

Colmes: What are you claiming Norm Mineta did? What was his involvement?

Fetzer: He was there as a witness. You remember what I explained, he was there in this underground bunker, and observed a young aide coming up to Cheney and saying, “Sir, it’s 50 miles out; sir, it’s 30 miles out; sir, it’s 10 miles out; sir, do the orders still stand?” Cheney turned on him, nearly bit off his head, said, “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything different?” The order can only have been to not to be not shoot the plane down. The obvious thing to do would be to shoot the plane down, cause then you use a—

Colmes: Well, what evidence do you have though that this conversation took place?

Fetzer: We got it recorded, Alan. Go on down to st911dotorg, you can find several versions of Mineta’s testimony, it’s recorded, it’s a matter of public record. He presented it to the 9-11 Commission, but it was so startling and so undermined their themes that they didn’t even publish it in their 9-11 Commission Report.


This is typical snake oil from Fetzer. The WMV file can be downloaded from here (right click and choose "Save link as", then open the file).

First of all, note the idiotic reasoning behind Mineta's resignation. It's because public officials have to respond to questions from reporters

Mineta does indeed recount the anecdote attributed to him, but here's the context:

Former Congressman Lee Hamilton: I wanted to focus just a moment on the presidential emergency operating center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. We had that order given, I think it was by the President, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists. Were you there when that order was given?

Mineta: No I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who'd come in and say to the vice president, the plane is 50 miles out, the plane is 30 miles out and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?


Now, in the fevered brain of Jim Fetzer, a question about the order to shoot down the plane becomes a question about the order not to shoot down the plane. Why? Here's what Fetzer claims:

The order can only have been to not to be not shoot the plane down. The obvious thing to do would be to shoot the plane down....


This is such a consistent fallacy among the Truthers that there has to be a term for it. They all seem to believe that everybody woke up the morning of September 11, 2001 with a September 12th attitude. But think about it from the standpoint of that young man, relaying orders to shoot down a passenger plane with potentially a hundred or more civilian deaths as a result. Is it any surprise that he wanted confirmation of that order?

Other examples of this fallacy include Fetzer's claim that if somebody had threatened him with a boxcutter, he would have beaten them to death with his luggage, and the frequent claim by other Truthers (mostly LIHOPs) that all three planes that hit the buildings should have been shot down before they even came close to their targets.

20 Comments:

At 02 July, 2006 11:52, Blogger nesNYC said...

But think about it from the *standpoint* of that young man, relaying orders to shoot down a passenger plane with potentially a hundred or more civilian deaths as a result. Is it any surprise that he wanted confirmation of that order?

Who cares about "standpoints" at this particular time, untold hundreds were dead at the WTC complex from the collision of two passenger aircraft. Those are the FACTS. No need to speculate about what this young man was feeling and pass that opinion off as fact. In typical Gravy train fashion, you’ve dug your own hole.

 
At 02 July, 2006 12:22, Blogger JoanBasil said...

Like that young man was worried about being held accountable for a mistake? He needn't have worried because 9/11 was like some bizarre April Fool's Day in terms of the military and other government employees not being held accountable for anything.

 
At 02 July, 2006 13:14, Blogger shawn said...

Like that young man was worried about being held accountable for a mistake? He needn't have worried because 9/11 was like some bizarre April Fool's Day in terms of the military and other government employees not being held accountable for anything.

If someone had told you on September 10, 2001 that 19 people were gonna hijack four planes and use them as missles against the WTC and the Pentagon you would've laughed at them.

 
At 02 July, 2006 13:16, Blogger Pat said...

And if the government had shot down four passenger planes these dolts would be accusing Bush and Cheney of murdering the civilians on board.

 
At 02 July, 2006 13:22, Blogger shawn said...

And if the government had shot down four passenger planes these dolts would be accusing Bush and Cheney of murdering the civilians on board.

It's damned if you do/damned if you don't with these people.

 
At 02 July, 2006 13:45, Blogger apathoid said...

And if the government had shot down four passenger planes these dolts would be accusing Bush and Cheney of murdering the civilians on board.

Yup, its safe to say that there wouldve been a conspiracy either way.

 
At 02 July, 2006 14:13, Blogger James B. said...

I thought is was a cruise missile anyway...

 
At 02 July, 2006 15:41, Blogger Richard said...

Yes a cruise missile lauched from a javelin with a super special explosive warhead that also used holo-emitters to make itself look like a plane and replicator technology to plant evidence. Duh!

 
At 02 July, 2006 16:05, Blogger James B. said...

Seriously, if Bush and Cheney were behind it, why make themselves look so inept. Why not have an F-15 come screaming in over DC 2 minutes later, "Damn we just missed them!" Why would Bush wait 5 minutes in the grade school looking confused, "Why not jump up and scream I will save you!" And go to work.

If United 93 was shot down, why lie about it? Why not use that as proof that the government did everything they could?

 
At 02 July, 2006 17:51, Blogger apathoid said...

If United 93 was shot down, why lie about it? Why not use that as proof that the government did everything they could?

James, I've been asking a variation of this question on the United 93 board for the last 2 months and the best answer so far is "hubris"....

United 93 does not fit, at all, into any of the inside-job equations.

If its job was to inflict terror like the other 3 planes - it didnt

If its job was to be shot down so that the admin could look like they did something right, why didnt they take credit? They even said they wouldve shot it down if the intercept made it there in time.

 
At 02 July, 2006 22:43, Blogger BoggleHead said...

This entire thread is what's called a moot point.

 
At 03 July, 2006 00:22, Blogger default.xbe said...

the purpose of flight 93 was to give CTers one more thing to point

flight 77: thats total BS, the military should have shot it down, im outraged they didnt do that

flight 93: oh my god i cant believe they actually shot it down, im outraged they did that

 
At 03 July, 2006 01:49, Blogger apathoid said...

Who cares about "standpoints" at this particular time, untold hundreds were dead at the WTC complex from the collision of two passenger aircraft. Those are the FACTS

Dude, you're slipping. I thought the "passenger aircraft" were US gummint off-the-books KC767 tankers??

So, you are saying its a FACT that they are commercial airliners now?

Clarify.

This entire thread is what's called a moot point.

Maybe its moot for the "no plane at the Pentagon" crowd like NesNYC and bg. Wait a minute, Nessie is arguing about this too now?

nesnyc, are you now saying that AA77 was allowed to hit the Pentagon?

In typical Gravy train fashion, you’ve dug your own hole.

So have you dude.

Did AA77 hit the Pentagon?

If no, what was Cheneys order that still stood?
Was it the order to *not* shoot down their own cruise missile?
(which is not even possible - see April Gallop thread)

Did airliners belonging to UA and AA hit the Towers as you've indicated as fact above?

You've got some 'splaining to do because you apparently keep changing your story

 
At 03 July, 2006 08:56, Blogger CHF said...

CTers,

get your fucking stories staight!

 
At 05 July, 2006 02:00, Blogger BoggleHead said...

I, for one, think Cheney's order was to shoot the plane down.

 
At 05 July, 2006 12:59, Blogger Alex said...

I for one don't know, and don't care. I'm not going to second-guess anyone's judgement call. If the order was "yes shoot down the plane" then they made a tough choice knowing that the lives of the passangers were forefeit anyway. If the order was "no, don't shoot down the plane", then they decided that they didn't want to be blamed for killing several dozen innocent Americans over their own soil. One would be a decision based on cold logic, the other on either cowardice or faith. Either way, who am I to say what the right decision would have been? Even in hindsight I can't tell you what my decision would have been if I had been asked to make it.

And, ofcourse, no matter which decision I made, the CT's would see it as backing their claims. Shoot it down? HE SHOT IT DOWN TO COVER UP THE EVIDENCE! Don't shoot it down? HE DIDN'T SHOOT IT DOWN BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT WAS CONTROLLING IT! You just can't win with these people.

 
At 18 July, 2006 14:26, Blogger Myth_Buster_Man said...

That whole suppossed "Mineta testimony" is obviously propaganda by the CTers. The official 9/11 report says that Cheney did not reach the PEOC [Presidential Emergency Operations Center]) until 9:58 (page 241-44). So everything that Mineta says is false anyway, since he claims that Cheney was there before 9:20. Could Mineta have resigned, because he also is a CTer?

 
At 18 July, 2006 23:36, Blogger Myth_Buster_Man said...

Oh yeah, and I forgot, we also know that Mineta was lying because the Pentagon didn't even know a plane was headed towards it until it crashed. If the Pentagon had known, surely they would have issued a warning to the people at the Pentagon to take cover.

 
At 18 November, 2007 20:43, Blogger Mark Tracy said...

Why would Minetta lie? Cheney has a stronger motive to lie since he obviously wanted to use 9-11 as an excuse to invade Iraq. The fact that Minetta's testimony was removed from the 9-11 Commission report should make everyone suspicious.

 
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