Tuesday, October 17, 2006

Nope, They're Not Anti-Semitic At All

They just want to find a way to blame it on the Jooooooos.

We get the familiar nonsense about the Israeli art students spying on the US DEA, about the Israelis dominating ecstasy production, about the students living in Hollywood, Florida, where Mohammed Atta once lived, etc.

There are plenty of dots for the more retarded members of 9-11 Truth to connect:

September 4, 2001: Israeli Company Moves Out of WTC
The Zim-American Israeli Shipping Co. moves their North American headquarters from the 16th floor of the WTC to Norfolk, Virginia, one week before the 9/11 attacks. The Israeli government owns 49 percent of the company. [ Virginian-Pilot, 9/4/01 ] Zim announced the move and its date six months earlier. [ Virginian-Pilot, 4/3/01 ]


Of course, nobody on the 16th floor died, so why would they move out and create suspicion if they were in on the plot?

Two employees of Odigo, Inc., an Israeli company, receive warnings of an imminent attack in New York City about two hours before the first plane hits the WTC. Odigo, one of the world's largest instant messaging companies, has its headquarters two blocks from the WTC. The Odigo Research and Development offices where the warnings were received are located in Herzliyya, a suburb of Tel Aviv. Israeli security and the FBI were notified immediately after the 9/11 attacks began. The two employees claim not to know who sent the warnings. “Odigo service includes a feature called People Finder that allows users to seek out and contact others based on certain interests or demographics. [Alex] Diamandis [Odigo vice president of sales and marketing] said it was possible that the attack warning was broadcast to other Odigo members, but the company has not received reports of other recipients of the message.” [ Ha'aretz, 9/26/01; Washington Post, 9/27/01 (C) ] Odigo claims the warning did not specifically mention the WTC, but the company refuses to divulge what was specified, claiming, “Providing more details would only lead to more conjecture.” [ Washington Post, 9/28/01 ] Odigo gave the FBI the Internet address of the message's sender so the name of the sender could be found. [Deutsche Presse-Agenteur, 9/26/01 ] Two months later, it is reported that the FBI is still investigating the matter, but there have been no reports since. [Courier Mail, 11/20/01 ]


Unfortunately Jon Gold, who wrote the piece does not include links so you can check his story out. The Odigo story is an old one, and I suspect true enough. But of course, what we are left with is a message that says "There's going to be an attack in New York City!" Why would the bosses in the NWO send that message? Why to an Israeli company? In all probability this is just a prank that happened to come at the wrong time.

Typically stupid stuff from Gold, who's a real sweetheart in person:

161 Comments:

At 17 October, 2006 09:02, Blogger The Reverend Schmitt., FCD. said...

But of course, what we are left with is a message that says "There's going to be an attack in New York City!"

It doesn't even say that as far as has been reported. It just warned of an imminent terrorist attack, IIRC to the Israeli arm of the company rather than NY.

 
At 17 October, 2006 10:03, Blogger CHF said...

Tip of the day for twoofers:

2) PURGE THE ULTRA-LOONS FROM YOUR RANKS. Granted, you’re all loony to a certain extend (that’s why you’re conspiracy theorists) but even you guys should have standards. Many have noticed the disturbing overlap between 9/11 “truth” and other forms of…umm…“truth.” It looks very bad on your movement when your leaders (Fetzer, Loose Change etc) quote folks like Holocaust Deniers or the ultra-right wing American Free Press as reliable sources. This overlap between conspiracy theories isn’t surprising (they all tend to rely on the same logical fallacies and standards of “proof”) but even you should know better than to snuggle up with Nazis and white supremacists.

 
At 17 October, 2006 10:23, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

Bermas kind of looks like some sort of weird Nazi experiment gone horribly wrong.

 
At 17 October, 2006 10:25, Blogger JoanBasil said...

Can you nail this down for me, true or false:

The State Department received thousands of calls (I believe the number I remember reading was about 5,000 calls) after September 11th from Israelis worried about other Israelis having been killed. However, only one Israeli is known to have died, a passenger on one of the planes that flew into the towers.

The Israeli aspect is one of the things the 9/11 Commission didn't want to hear about. They couldn't find anyone providing support to the 19 hijackers but theres hundreds of Israeli spies in the country, some of them living close to Atta and some of them celebrating as they watched the towers collapse and those are facts.

 
At 17 October, 2006 10:45, Blogger CHF said...

OK...

so Israelis called The State Department to see if their relatives were OK after 9/11.

I wouldn't doubt it. So what?

I guess if Israel somehow was behind 9/11 they'd have known that their people wouldn't be killed and thus there'd be no need to check on them, right?

And please explain to me what spy school teaches students to get on top of a van and dance after a successful mission.

Seems rather un-spylike to me.

 
At 17 October, 2006 10:47, Blogger acmefoilco said...

Joan- Not all Israelis are jews, some are Muslim, some are Christian, etc...
Yes there were some Israelis dancin' about when the towers came down, but I would suspect that they fall into the Muslim category.

 
At 17 October, 2006 10:50, Blogger Manny said...

The State Department received thousands of calls (I believe the number I remember reading was about 5,000 calls) after September 11th from Israelis worried about other Israelis having been killed.

Probably true, at least in general. State got calls from all over the world. Don't know the number of calls from Israeli citizents, but it would be expected to be high, as a large number of Israelis have relatives in the New York metro area.

However, only one Israeli is known to have died, a passenger on one of the planes that flew into the towers.

False. At least 4 Israeli citizens died in the World Trade Center attacks.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:01, Blogger 911coverup said...

Is it anti-semitic to label those who questions israelis' role in 9/11 as an anti-semite? Are you exploiting the holocaust in order to discredit and silence us in a sick way? There are hundreds of reports proving there are strange connections between israel and 9/11. Would it made any difference if it were the russians? How does religion play in this role? You're a bunch of ignorant fucks if you ask me lol.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:06, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

the anti semitic charge is disgraceful.

yes there are lots of deranged holocaust deniers both inside and outside the truth movement. that is not the fault of genuine truthers and believe me we have done our best to discredit idiots like hufschmid.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:14, Blogger default.xbe said...

and believe me we have done our best to discredit idiots like hufschmid.

you dont need to discredit them, major "truth" outlets such as LTW simply need to issue a statement saying "the following people do not represent us or our ideas:"

however no one does this, they trot them out when they are saying somethign they agree with, and just kindof ognore them when they go off on tangents

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:15, Blogger JoanBasil said...

pdoherty,
The "anti-semitic" charge is a canard as is the "holocaust denier" crap. People are allowed to challenge official versions anyway they like so long as its peaceful and, in truth, this Anti-semitism!!!! ploy to shut other people down is only indicative of a totalitarian mentality.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:15, Blogger James B. said...

Then why do the "Scholars", not to mention Loose Change, continue to repeatedly cite a fringe newspaper started by a prominent holocaust denier?

I e-mailed Jim Fetzer months ago informing him of this, he is well aware of the dubious nature of his source. He doesn't care.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:19, Blogger telescopemerc said...

yes there are lots of deranged holocaust deniers both inside and outside the truth movement. that is not the fault of genuine truthers and believe me we have done our best to discredit idiots like hufschmid.

And yet sources like the Scholars and others happily use America Free Press. You in turn hap[pily use the claims the Scholars based on the AFP 'work'.

Yeah, right. Some purging you got there, and you haven't come close to kicking Hufschmid to the curb at all.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:19, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

james b a newspaper could be started by anyone but that does not mean its facts are wrong.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:19, Blogger JoanBasil said...

911 coverup,
What you're seeing is lots of "the lady doth protest too much." They know that taking away the weak "19 hijackers" story leaves Israel, known false flag operator (see Lavon Affair), known terrorism perpetrator (see King David Hotel) standing there as the likely suspect, with the usual motive of benefiting from the crime. If the 9/11 commission had any integrity, they'd have examined such a likely suspect but no one really cares about the American people.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:21, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

telescope check out the radio show stadtmiller did on 14th july. hufschmid is finished

by the way telescope, has alex had his email yet confirming i was telling the absolute truth.

oh and could you point out how i was demolished at jref?

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:23, Blogger JoanBasil said...

james b,
And has the Washington Post fired any of its OpEd contributors who pushed this disastrous Iraq War? No. They don't have any more credibility than this fellow you want Mr. Fetzer to throw overboard, maybe a lot less. To paraphrase that Republican Congressman, Hufschmid hasn't gotten anyone killed.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:23, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

while ur about it telescope could you explain the u-turn i point out in my blog?

ur one of the people who claimed engineers knew the builing woul d collapse

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:25, Blogger default.xbe said...

james b a newspaper could be started by anyone but that does not mean its facts are wrong.

so why cant someone else duplicate their research and publish in a more credible journal?

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:28, Blogger tym said...

Why tell a company that would be unlikely to have any casualties about the attack? Money! Beautiful money!

Think of the coin saved on the bottom line in terms of papers, paperclips, pens, staplers, and other various office supplies?

Sweet delicious money!

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:29, Blogger James B. said...

And has the Washington Post fired any of its OpEd contributors who pushed this disastrous Iraq War? No. They don't have any more credibility than this fellow you want Mr. Fetzer to throw overboard, maybe a lot less.

The American Free Press is as credible as the Washington Post? Well that tells us about everything we need to know about your judgement.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:33, Blogger JoanBasil said...

Until they fire the cretins and traitors in their midst who pushed this Iraq War, the Washington Post editorial page should have no credibility. How wrong do they have to be to get fired?

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:34, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

where is ur evidence that it was started by a holocaust denier anyway?

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:36, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

joan im definitely with you on the iraq war

a totally unprovoked attack on a country that was based on lies about wmd

these people rightly talk about the victims of 911 but where is their concern for the innocent children the government has murdered in iraq

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:39, Blogger James B. said...

Geez PD, you claim to be an expert on debunking the debunkers, supposedly you have exposed us all as a bunch of idiots and liars, but you haven't even done the basic research to know what we are referring to.

type "american free press" into the little blogger search box at the top. We have done more stories on these idiots than I care to talk about.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:42, Blogger Manny said...

They know that taking away the weak "19 hijackers" story leaves Israel, known false flag operator (see Lavon Affair), known terrorism perpetrator (see King David Hotel) standing there as the likely suspect, with the usual motive of benefiting from the crime.

Oh, so you didn't actually want to know how many Israeli citizens were murdered by the terrorists that day, you were just setting up for "the jooooos did it." Gotcha.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:43, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

james show me the proof that a holocaust denier started the paper. and then show me the proof that that has any connection to the stories it writes today

by the way, i never claimed to be an expert on anything, my blog is as you know my opinions and experiences of what debunkers are saying, with a bit of dry humour thrown in. i dont claim its a serious document. i am not a journalist, just a person with opinions. i know opinions are banned at jref but they are welcome at my blog

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:51, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

its funny, every exchange at jref involves "show me the proof" but when we try the same tactic here people dont like it

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:55, Blogger tym said...

Is pdoherty trying to claim that Willis Carto isn't a holocaust denier now?

Are you shitting me?

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:56, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

tynm i dont know anything about the man u mention, i am asking you to show me the evidence. can u or not?

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:59, Blogger James B. said...

If you want proof, then read the posts on the AFP we have made as I said. I am not going to cut and paste a dozen articles into this thread just because you are too lazy to do any actual research.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:59, Blogger Jacob said...

"The IHR was founded by Willis Carto in 1979, with the intent of promoting the proposition that the Nazi Holocaust is not historically accurate"

"In 2001, Liberty Lobby and Willis Carto lost a lawsuit brought by a rival far-right group which had earlier gained control of the Institute for Historical Review, and the ensuing judgment bankrupted the organization. Willis Carto and others who had been involved in publishing The Spotlight have since started a new newspaper, the American Free Press, which is very similar in overall tone to The Spotlight. As an organization, Liberty Lobby is defunct."



From Wikipedia, though not the best source. I know it doesn't address your second need for proof: "show me the proof that that has any connection to the stories it writes today" But come on... read some of the stories.

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:02, Blogger tym said...

Tip for pdoherty: When defending the credibility of a founder of a paper, try to know who the guy is and what he's been all about for the past 50 years before you stick up for his reputation.

It takes 20 seconds to google the name and click and read that HE IS THE FOUNDER OF THE AMERICAN FREE PRESS.

Of course you should've checked for yourself on him before "show me the proof" as if you had any basis for an informed opinion that disagrees.

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:03, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

so ur assertion that it relates to the stories today is just ur opinion not fact.

Also this guy said the holocaust wasnt accurate, so he doesnt flat out deny it right?

also wikipedia is not a source you can use, its written by anonymous trolls

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:04, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

i am not making assertions about this guy and i havent defended him in any way. i am asking for your concrete evidence that he exists

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:05, Blogger JoanBasil said...

pdoherty,
You're on the right track if you use your own good common sense. Did you know that the Pentagon has twice as many washrooms as it needs because at the time it was built, there was official segregation so they had white and colored toilets? I mention that to say that, obviously, someone holding an odious opinion (if thats the knock on those who distrust the official version of the Holocaust as opposed to whether or not the official version is the truth) does not completely discredit everything about that person.

Well, we all know that. Its part of every day life. Get ordinary people talking about the Iraq War and I guarantee you that a large percentage will come out with the racist, vicious, horrific view that the US should "nuke them all." And other than that, they're nice people who'd help you if you needed help! Go figure.

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:11, Blogger Nyke said...

"by the way, i never claimed to be an expert on anything"

Except a branch of Physics, which you pass off bad physics as evidence.

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:11, Blogger JoanBasil said...

This is a fact: the official plaque laid at Auschwitz in 1948 said 4 million died there and now theres a new plaque that says 1.5 million. Is that not a subject for historical examination? Of course, it is and as Ahmadinejad said, the whole world isn't going to bow down low to the rhetoric of white Europeans and Americans forever.
http://www.debatebothsides.com/showthread.php?t=34839

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:23, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

i never claim to be an expert in physics, i just pointed out i had a scientific degree against someone who claimed i knew nothing about science

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:23, Blogger tym said...

Holocaust denial isn't limited to "it didn't happen" - In fact, they're like the "no planers" are to regular Twoofers

It's radically understating the severity of it and questioning the veracity of countless research which went into the approximate death tolls.

It's saying "oh sure, they were ghettoed off but they weren't put in fucking gas chambers and ovens"

Now I'm in charge of proving that Willis Carto exists?

Piece of cake

Unless the anti-defamation league is a bunch of anonymous trolls too.

(I don't like wiki either but it's reliable enough for basic major biographical information like whether or not a guy has been publicly known as an anti-semite for 50 years or so)

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:29, Blogger Jujigatami said...

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Joanbasil is just a nesnyc sockpuppet?

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:34, Blogger Nyke said...

"i never claim to be an expert in physics, i just pointed out i had a scientific degree against someone who claimed i knew nothing about science"

I see.

Now, are you going to comment or retract the support of Screw Screw Loose Change, or show your ignorance for all to see?

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:34, Blogger telescopemerc said...

oh and could you point out how i was demolished at jref?

Let's see:

After you said you would 'demolish' Gravy, you basicly have fled the thread reserved for you two. Its painfully obvious that you lost, badly.

Some other classic moments:

"TAM dont u try calling me a coward, " (TAM didn't call you a coward, you gave yourself that label.)

"nope ive decided to be a coward and run away"

"u people are impossible to debate"

"maybe i am just not a critical thinker "

"so my ears are not evidence. i must be lying until i can show you the link to this radio clip." (said after he demanded that he was correct about 'debunkers' saying there were no columns again.)

You were destroyed. Pure and simple. And after all that bragging and posturing.

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:36, Blogger Jujigatami said...

" They know that taking away the weak "19 hijackers" story leaves Israel, known false flag operator (see Lavon Affair), known terrorism perpetrator (see King David Hotel) standing there as the likely suspect

Yeah, sure, take away the hijackers and you're left with Israel.

Great logic there.

I get it now.

Take away the "weak" planes theory and of course, you are left with either CD, micro-nukes, or directional nuclear infra-ray.

Makes perfect sense.

Oh, of course the Joos used the infra-ray.

Why didn't I see it before, its all so clear now.

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:38, Blogger tym said...

The auchwitz plaque thing is a classic strawman. The Russians laid the original plaque without research and that figure was not used to calculate the estimate of 5-6 million jews and about 3-5 million other deaths (non-war ones).

The discrepancy is in the plaque being changed is often cited as a sign of inconsistency in the official numbers (kindof like how incorrect media reports from 9/11/01 in the confusion are the basis of 9/11 denial from reports of secondary bombs, to the erroneous reports of flight 93 landing/being shot down to the steel actually physically melting)....The 4 million in the original plaque was never accounted into an official figure.

A conservative breakdown is something like

1.4 million - executed outside of camps by firing squads (based on nazi records primarily)
.8 million - deaths from the ghetto
2.9 million - camps

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:40, Blogger telescopemerc said...

telescope check out the radio show stadtmiller did on 14th july. hufschmid is finished

Phhht. Accusing the other guy of being a government shill is not drumming them out of the movement. Its an attempt to avoid responsibility.

Even if it were true, why did it take so freaking long? Its 2006 for freaks sake.

Oh, and let's see what the screwloosechange points out:

"At the 17th minute of the second hour Stadtmiller gets in a big argument with a caller named Walt over whether the Jews or the Vatican (or both) control the world, and whether Stalin was a Roman Catholic or a Jew (neither, he studied for the seminary at a Russian Orthodox institution). Wow, what an intellectual conversation."

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:54, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

telescope ur right, the jref boys won. they are the champions my friend

get a grip

as i have shown here, when the same evidence-demanding tactic is used here u lot poo your pants

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:57, Blogger telescopemerc said...

ur one of the people who claimed engineers knew the builing woul d collapse

Some did, some did not. Eagar is on record as saying he did not think it would collapse. He states as much in a PBS interview.

However, another one states a different opinion:

"My first reaction was, "At least it didn't collapse immediately,"' Corley said. "What happened was bad enough, but it stayed up for a while and people got out."

As an engineer who has examined countless bridges and buildings for structural flaws, Corley knew once the jets hit the building that the World Trade Center would collapse as it did.

"I just didn't know when it was going to happen," he said. "Visually, it was still shocking."


Furthermore, a NYC SE warned Guiliani that the buildings were going to collapse, or at least were in danger of collapse. This is no real surprise as the buckling was visible to them, even police helicoptor pilots could see that.

So you'll get mixed initial opinions from Engineers that day. The ones one scene probably had a better inkling of the state of the building, but nobody could set up and run a computer model in a hour to be certain one way or the other.

So what is the point you are trying to make?

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:58, Blogger telescopemerc said...

as i have shown here, when the same evidence-demanding tactic is used here u lot poo your pants

You have shown nothing of the sort. All you've manage to demonstrate is that you are clueless when it comes to burdens of evidence.

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:58, Blogger tym said...

pdoherty, did you miss the part where info was provided backing up the claim that the American Free Press creator has long been associated with holocaust-denial/revisionism and anti-semitism?

The guy started his own foundation in 1979 solely for the purposes of "challening the holocaust myth" publicly.


You were also told to go check out the numerous posts on here detailing the patterns of the American Free Press.

You got your answers

 
At 17 October, 2006 12:59, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

engineers that knew should have informed the fire department who bravely entered doomed towers

by the way, why is my degree still being denied? i gave u the institution and the proffessors name, alex claims to have emailed him. wonder where he is?

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:00, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Also this guy said the holocaust wasnt accurate, so he doesnt flat out deny it right?

lmao.

I have to say, this blog really brightens up my lunch hour sometimes. Thank god James and Pat let the CT's come to play.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:01, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

i have no burden to provide evidence to have an opinion. much of the evidence is circumstantial and lets not forget circumstantial evidence is admissav=ble in court

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:11, Anonymous Anonymous said...

engineers that knew should have informed the fire department who bravely entered doomed towers

Tragically the AAPE (american association of psychic engineers) was not in contact with the fire department that day. I demand an investigation!

by the way, why is my degree still being denied?

For what it's worth, I believe you have a degree. I just don't care.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:19, Blogger telescopemerc said...

engineers that knew should have informed the fire department who bravely entered doomed towers

Do you think that would stop them?

You are very good at second guessing people's heroic efforts on that day.

Most engineers knew about the likely collapse when they were able to assess the power of the fire, which was not initially apparent. By that time, firemen were deep inside trying to save lives.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:29, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

telescope i take ur point but if i were an engineer and knew those towers would collapse imminently i would have done everything possible to get the authorities to evacuate emergency personnel from those towers immediately

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:40, Blogger tym said...

engineers that knew should have informed the fire department who bravely entered doomed towers

That's some bullshit right there. It's not like there were a plethora of structural engineers there with access to the WTC's design plans who knew the full scope of the conditions of the planes (even the amount of jet fuel wasn't really known for certain) sitting around at ground zero with the chance to save it.

And given the fact that many firefighters stayed in Tower 1 and died when it collapsed a half hour after they knew what happened to Tower 2, it's unlikely that it would've made a difference.

That's what makes firefighters and those ones different from you and I. They'll take extraordinary risks in the name of saving lives that not all people would do.

There was no definite consensus either way from enough engineers to justify pulling rescue operations when there were still lives to be saved. There just wasn't enough time and brainpower to really say for certain what would happen.

Some saw it as inevitable, the rest weren't sure.

The only thing they have in common is that they all agree after the fact that it was more than possible with all the factors in the "official story."

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:41, Blogger Jujigatami said...

Jesus Christ, Firefighters KEPT GOINT IN to the NORTH tower even AFTER the south tower collapsed!

They had a pretty goddamn good idea that the tower might come down, but they still risked their lives to save others.

Many of them ignored the official calls to "pull" out of the north tower because there were SO many people that still needed to be evacuated.

But I'm sure a call from an engineer would have made all the difference.

Oh, and what about the firefighters and engineers that looked at WTC7 and said it was going to collapse? So they pulled the effort to prevent more loss of life. You morons are all over that.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:42, Blogger Jujigatami said...

tym,

Jinx!

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:43, Blogger CHF said...

Face it, pdoherty76, your pathetic movement is in bed with a bunch of neo-Nazi scumbags.

And it is NOT a fringe element either.

The likes of AFP, Eric Hufschmid and Donn de Grand are cited repeatedly by twoofers as if they were some sort of valid source.

The fact that Holocaust Deniers are firmly in your camp is what's known as a "clue."

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:44, Blogger Stevew said...

You guys beat me to it

Opinions are like as....
When dealing with a situation that was unthinkable, people hesitate before they react and it doesn't take much to cause a domino effect. Nobody at the time thought the towers would collapse. I wonder how all these critic's would do if they were in the position of these folks. I wonder how many engineers there were in the chaos of the day doing the anaylsis?

I was stunned after the first and when I watched the second live I was in total rage and could not leave the tube. People love to throw stones from the bleachers but never tell what they were doing or would do in the same situation. Hindsight is always 20/20. This had never happened before and everybody reacts different and people should not be hasty but give people the benefit of the dought, there may have been many things going on and under the same circumstances who knows how anyone would react.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:45, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

so how do you feel about Bush's nazi connections? dont they count?

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:47, Blogger telescopemerc said...

telescope i take ur point but if i were an engineer and knew those towers would collapse imminently i would have done everything possible to get the authorities to evacuate emergency personnel from those towers immediately

In the United States we refer to this as 'Monday Morning Quarterbacking'.

As others pointed out, firefighters went into the standing building after the first one fell. Do you think some SE is going to tell firefighters to stop trying to save lives?

Man alive, you are callous, disgusting, and indifferent.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:49, Blogger CHF said...

so how do you feel about Bush's nazi connections? dont they count?

Prescott Buch was opportunistic greedy scum. I don't care for the current George W either.

Let me know when you see me or anyone else here quoting them in support of our positions.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:51, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

how am i callous? the people above the impact were unsavable. What is the point in all those fireman dying to save people who could not be saved?

I will give you a definition of callous: people who think that what happened in the towers is a good reason to bomb innocent chikldren in afghanistan who know nothing about it

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:51, Blogger telescopemerc said...

so how do you feel about Bush's nazi connections? dont they count?

Not for a whole lot:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:53, Blogger telescopemerc said...

how am i callous? the people above the impact were unsavable.


But many below the impact point were saveable. Do you think damage ended at the impact point?

What is the point in all those fireman dying to save people who could not be saved?

When you visit NYC next year like your promise, why don't you go up to the firemen and tell them this. Tell them how futile and useless their comrades' deaths were.

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:58, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

telescope i will do that as long as u also come to ground zero and call us mental and anti semitic etc. Your a brave man behind that computer arent u?

Alex jones deserves far more respect than u, even if hes mentally deranged as u people think he will challenge these people at his own risk.

By the way, i notice you dont respond to the murder of children in response to 911

 
At 17 October, 2006 13:59, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

check my blog folks, new post up, come on you know u cant resist

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:01, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

james b a newspaper could be started by anyone but that does not mean its facts are wrong.

What a coincidence....
YOU faked your degree and most of YOUR facts are wrong.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:05, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

Until they fire the cretins and traitors in their midst who pushed this Iraq War, the Washington Post editorial page should have no credibility. How wrong do they have to be to get fired?

So Joan they should be fired and then you Tin Foil Hatters turn around and cry censorship everytime your fucked up paranoid views are "suppressed" by the media.

What a douchebag

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:05, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

lying dylan when u use ur real name rather than the name of the man u envy then u may talk about fakes. As i have pointed out before, people who use their stalking victims names often go on to kill them.

My degree is real as u well know

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:07, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

calling people douchebags is sucha mature form of debate. Ive never undertood why an instrument for cleaning a womans vagina is such an insult, id rather call u a twat

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:14, Anonymous Anonymous said...

people who think that what happened in the towers is a good reason to bomb innocent chikldren in afghanistan who know nothing about it

You really think that children were the targets in Afghanistan?
The 9/11 attacks were conceived in afghanistan with the complicity of the Taliban, so we went after them.

There hasn't been a war since the invention of airpower that hasn't seen civillian casualties. It sucks, it's a good reason to be a pacifist. Wars, especially the way they're fought now, are always inhumane.

Sometimes wars are necessary. Sometimes there is no way to know whether it is necessary or not, somebody has to make a judgement call. They don't have to be evil to make the wrong call.

What does any of that have to do with 9/11 conspiracies? Once again you've posted something completely irrelevant to your claims. Do you have any evidence of U.S. government complicity? No.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:17, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My degree is real as u well know

I don't know why anyone still cares about your education, but if you really want to settle this...

Just scan your diploma and post it on your blog. Then you can say, "ha! I told you all I was a mathmephysicist" or whatever the hell you are.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:17, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

if 19 terrorists and osama did 911. then they are the criminals. 19 of them died so that leaves osama. if you government is too inept to capture him then that doesnt make it right to bomb children.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:18, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

burke unfortunately i do not hjave a scanner but if i can borrow one ill do it. but even then u will claim i mocked up the certificate.

i am a master of mathematics, why isnt alex posting the email

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:22, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

What is the point in all those fireman dying to save people who could not be saved?

WOW!!!
You are sooo out of touch with ANYTHING CLOSE to resmembling reality.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:22, Blogger Stevew said...

Burke
As you know this country has gone to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties, far more than any other country. We could have gone in and leveled things had we wanted to, saved our soldiers live and not cared about civilian lives. The muzzi extreemists are the opposite, they purposly target women and children but do you hear the whaks bitch about that... NO

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:24, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

lying dylan when u use ur real name rather than the name of the man u envy then u may talk about fakes. As i have pointed out before, people who use their stalking victims names often go on to kill them.

Uuuuuuh ok

My degree is real as u well know

Congrats on BUYING your bullshit degree from some bullshit online "University"

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:25, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

calling people douchebags is sucha mature form of debate. Ive never undertood why an instrument for cleaning a womans vagina is such an insult, id rather call u a twat

You twat douchebag

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:26, Blogger CHF said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:26, Blogger CHF said...

pdoherty76,

Fuck your education. It doesn't matter.

If you have solid proof that 9/11 was carried out by Bush and the neo-cons then let's see it.

Something you'd be confident going to court with...

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:27, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

i am a master of mathematics

Yes you used excellent math to pay the 19.99 for you bullshit degree.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:28, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

show me your solid proof that it wasnt

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:29, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

show me your solid proof that it wasnt

I know you are but what am I

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:30, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

lying dylan the real dylan has a great life doesnt he

when u can get a degree u may comment, until then stick to obsessing over successful avery

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:31, Blogger CHF said...

show me your solid proof that it wasnt

You're asking me to prove a negative?

What, are you retarded?

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:32, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

no chf im asking u to prove that osama and his crew did it cos they "hate your freedoms"

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:33, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

defence lawyers prove people didnt do things all the time. proving a negative is something different

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:35, Anonymous Anonymous said...

if 19 terrorists and osama did 911. then they are the criminals. 19 of them died so that leaves osama. if you government is too inept to capture him then that doesnt make it right to bomb children.

19 terrorists, Osama, and... oh, a highly-sophisticated multinational terror organization with a history of attacks and the potential to do more. 7/7 should have proved to you that Al-Qaeda is worth fighting against.

But I repeat: do you have any evidence of U.S. complicity in the 9/11 attacks, or do you just want to wax philosophocal on the justifications for war?

It's a funny thing, I've been trying to set up a mock trial so that we can have a structured debate about the 9/11 attacks. The trouble I'm having is that I can't find any conspiracy theorists willing to present evidence the U.S. government was involved. Hmmmm.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:37, Anonymous Anonymous said...

im asking u to prove that osama and his crew did it cos they "hate your freedoms"

They did it because they hate our support for Israel and our military presence in the middle east. That's what they said when they confessed to doing it, I don't see any reason not to take them at their word.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:38, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

burke have u tried asking mike ruppert? he has composed a nice case involving means, motive and opportunity. he used to be an LAPD detective so he knows what hes doing

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:39, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

well bush must have lied on 911 when he said they hate ur freedoms

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:40, Anonymous Anonymous said...

well bush must have lied on 911 when he said they hate ur freedoms

You're completely incapable of logical thought.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:41, Blogger CHF said...

no chf im asking u to prove that osama and his crew did it cos they "hate your freedoms"

Ah....so now you're bringing motive into the question instead of holding your ground on controlled demolitions.

It just so happens that I completely disagree with the "hate our freedoms" claim that the US guv makes. In fact, when people say they disagree with the official story (as I would if asked by a poll) this is the part they're referring to - not controlled demolitions and missiles hiting the Pentagon!

Osama hates the USA primarily because the US backs non-Islamist regimes in the Middle East, placed troops in Saudi Arabia and supports Israel.

In that sense, yes - Bush has been dishonest about 9/11.

Now explain to me what that has to do with the WTC being destroyed with bombs?

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:42, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

"You're completely incapable of logical thought. "

could you please show some evidence of that burke

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:42, Blogger tym said...

if 19 terrorists and osama did 911. then they are the criminals. 19 of them died so that leaves osama. if you government is too inept to capture him then that doesnt make it right to bomb children.

But we got a whole bunch of free children-targeting bombs.

Afghanistan was the most morally justified conflict in the last 50 years, easily.

Individuals who conspired and aided mass murder were being harbored by a rogue regime who refused to even acknowledge the probability of guilt.

Osama Bin Laden wasn't the only other person involved in 9/11 - In some ways, he was actually far less important than people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who was far more instrumental in putting the people together, funding, and had involvement in far more attacks than Bin laden.

Foreign policy since the attacks is a lot more open-ended and debatable. It's also somewhat irrelevant to this discussion. Since I'd bet good money most of the people here calling you a moron don't even agree with each other on every aspect of that.

The attacks themselves are not a matter of opinion. It's fact. We're right. You're wrong. And until CTists present a plausible case that actually holds up to the most intense scrutiny, doesn't rely on a combination of lies, misinformation, and intentional deception (which by the way will never happen), they will always be wrong.

It's that simple.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:43, Anonymous Anonymous said...

could you please show some evidence of that burke

if I had any confidence you could understand it, I would.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:43, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

chief u still havent explained how showing bush wasnt involved is proving a negative

are u retarded?

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:44, Blogger Cassiopeia said...

I think Doherty came here with a certain swagger expecting the contributors to this blog to be dumb flag waving rednecks. As he gets consitently trounced by reason and logic he becomes ever more shrill and confused.
Most amusing.
Oh and Paul - still waiting for you to apologise for calling me 'pedo' and then lying about ever having done so. Go on. Try and claw back a scrap of dignity for yourself.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:44, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

meaning u cant show me any. ok burke

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:46, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

cassiopedo i showed u where the door was last time u said u didnt want to debate me. ill show u again: its that little red square with a cross on the top right of ur browser

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:47, Blogger CHF said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:47, Blogger CHF said...

If you make a claim then it's up to YOU to prove it, pdoherty76.

You can't say "prove Bush wasn't involved." YOU have to prove he WAS, comprende?

It's like if I were to say "you're a child molester; prove me wrong!" I'd be laughed out of any court room.

How old are you?

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:48, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

the taliban offered to hand over osama if the US produced evidence but they couldnt produce any

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:49, Blogger telescopemerc said...

telescope i will do that as long as u also come to ground zero and call us mental and anti semitic etc. Your a brave man behind that computer arent u?

I don't have to call anyone there anti-semetic when they make their anti-semetism so apparent.

Or do you think Ray Riviera is really a Mossad agent?

Alex jones deserves far more respect than u, even if hes mentally deranged as u people think he will challenge these people at his own risk.

What risk? If a 1/100 of the crap that comes out of AJ's mouth were true someone would have offed him ages ago to keep things covered up.

Alex Jones shits on the graves of the dead, and does so under the protection of the police. He harasses members of the armed forces just looking to get lunch.

By the way, i notice you dont respond to the murder of children in response to 911

You mean to say I ignored YET ANOTHER irrelevant and completely invented sashey from you? Wow. Maybe you should stick to topic instead of trying to fart of a smokescreen of irrelevant and untrue comments.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:50, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

chf u are confusing a court room with a lame blog. this isnt a courtromm so as such i wont pretend to be a lawyer. comprendez?

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:51, Blogger telescopemerc said...

the taliban offered to hand over osama if the US produced evidence but they couldnt produce any

The Taliban put up a series of conditions for 'turning over' Osama when they had no intention of doing so. They were stalling, and only idiots like you beleived them.

Or do you think they 'lost their Osama' when they realised that stalling tactic was not going to work?

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:51, Blogger CHF said...

You really think the Taliban was going to hand over Bin Laden and all his AQ fighters as demanded???

It was a stalling tactic, nothing more.

If you knew anything at all about the Afghan code when it comes to guests you wouldn't think that the Taliban were ever going to hand OBL over.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:52, Blogger Cassiopeia said...

Right, so having vehemently protested your innocence you're now calling me a 'pedo' again. What a silly little boy - all you had to do was apologise. I believe my tone with you has always been civil. A shame you couldn't reciprocate. I'd be happy to debate with anyone, but when right out of the blocks they insinuate you have an unhealthy interest in little girls, then procede to lie about it in a spectacularly petty and churlish manner then you haven't got much of a platform for honest debate, have you?

Oh, and apropos of nothing: if you lived in Fallowfield circa 95-96 I think I knew you vaguely.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:52, Blogger CHF said...

chf u are confusing a court room with a lame blog. this isnt a courtromm so as such i wont pretend to be a lawyer. comprendez?

So you have no evidence that you would feel confident in presenting.

Yeah, I figured as much.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:52, Blogger Alex said...

Burke:

There hasn't been a war since the invention of airpower that hasn't seen civillian casualties. It sucks, it's a good reason to be a pacifist. Wars, especially the way they're fought now, are always inhumane.

Actually, it'd be more accurate to say that there has NEVER been a war without civilian casualties. If anything, the advent of modern airpower has lessened the amount of civilians killed. In the past, marching a massive army over land meant you'd strip the local area of any food and materials you could. Civilians would starve if they weren't killed outright for their possessions. And, ofcourse, uncivilized soldiers living under such horrid conditions would avail themselves of whatever pleasures they could, including rape, which also tended to lead to the murder of the local men. Warfare today is much more humane than it's ever been before.

They did it because they hate our support for Israel and our military presence in the middle east. That's what they said when they confessed to doing it, I don't see any reason not to take them at their word.

Well, I hate to bring Hitler into this, but look at HIS justification for war, and then look at his real goals. I don't see any reason to believe that Osama is any more trustworthy than Hitler. Moreover, we know very well that a lot of the claims of Muslim fanatics are bullshit. Look at the Israel/Palestine situation. Palestinian groups claim to want an "end to occupation" and to get their land back, yet every time Israel gives them back some land and pulls back some of it's soldiers, attacks against Israel increase. Take from that what you will, but I for one believe their ultimate goal is the destruction of our society, and the "Islamification" of the whole world. And most of the authorities in the matter agree.

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:54, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

alex jones didnt shit on any graves when he heroically rebuilt the waco church.

How brave he was to challenge those marines, i wouldnt have the guts to challenge marine psychopaths that are trained to kill and love violence.

he has been arrested numerous times. ur rite that some people would love to kill him but they think that just ridiculing him is a better tactic.

by the way u didnt answer, are u coming to ground zero? ill take you to some truthers that are jewish and u can call them anti semitic

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:56, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

cassio i lived near fallowfield and started my degree in 96.

i called u a pedo cos i thought u were a man

talking of degrees, wheres the email alex?

 
At 17 October, 2006 14:58, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

look how burke wonderfully understates the case that civilian casualties "suck"

burke if ur family were killed by bombs would u claim it "sucks"

hey maybe u think 911 "sucked a little bit"

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:00, Blogger shawn said...

I mention that to say that, obviously, someone holding an odious opinion (if thats the knock on those who distrust the official version of the Holocaust as opposed to whether or not the official version is the truth) does not completely discredit everything about that person.

It shows they have a tendency for not following evidence and for believing unsupported things because of their preconceived biases.

Notice most of you morons think there was a plot to kill Kennedy. There's no evidence for one, but since it's the big bad government behind it you'll believe it.

And stop saying the "official version". How often do you study the Holocaust, huh? The Holocaust is quite possibly the most documented major event in the history of mankind, it's got more support than anything else. The Holocaust deniers (much like you idiotic inside jobbers) live off of the ignorance and biases of others to thrive.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:01, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

what i love about these debates is that i can literall see u lot writhing in pain at the thought that someone like me dare have an opinion that i didnt get from fox news.

its like poetry in motion

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:04, Blogger shawn said...

How brave he was to challenge those marines, i wouldnt have the guts to challenge marine psychopaths that are trained to kill and love violence.

Wow just wow. Nope don't thank them for making sure your people don't speak German and goose-step under the crooked cross. Call them baby-killers and psychos. God, you're pathetic.

ill take you to some truthers that are jewish and u can call them anti semitic

Never heard of a self-hating Jew? Look up Norman Finkelstein.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:04, Blogger shawn said...

what i love about these debates is that i can literall see u lot writhing in pain at the thought that someone like me dare have an opinion that i didnt get from fox news.

I don't watch, and probably never will watch, Fox News!

Try again, moron.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:06, Blogger Alex said...

marine psychopaths that are trained to kill and love violence

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:07, Blogger Cassiopeia said...

"i called u a pedo cos i thought u were a man"

Er okay - so now you're admitting it?
Interesting, because yesterday you wrote:
"i wasnt calling u a pedofile...

...cassio could you show me the line in which i said u were a pedofile? i said i wasnt a pedofile
now if u want to twist that onto urself feel free. it further proves ur tactics...

..cassio ur being anal again, stop analysing my spelling, ur descending into paranoia...

...cassio i apologise that ur paranoia made u think i was calling u a pedo...."



Paul, you're a liar. Why should anyone here trust anything you say? Hoisted on your own petard, eh?

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:09, Blogger telescopemerc said...

How brave he was to challenge those marines, i wouldnt have the guts to challenge marine psychopaths that are trained to kill and love violence.

You are a disgusting waste of skin.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:15, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

"you are a disgusting waste of skin"

great argument telescope, i notice u ignored my other points

why am i not entitled to an opinion about the marines? generally speaking the armed forces are rejects who couldnt do any other job

sorry but thats my opinion, im having it cos this isnt jref

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:18, Blogger telescopemerc said...

great argument telescope, i notice u ignored my other points

What other points? You love the disgusting paranoid scumbag by the name of Alex Jones, we get it. You are disgusting for your admiration of his harassment of ordinary soldiers.

why am i not entitled to an opinion about the marines? generally speaking the armed forces are rejects who couldnt do any other job

sorry but thats my opinion, im having it cos this isnt jref


You are allow to have your opinion. I am allowed to consider it disgusting, vile, ill-informed, ignorant, shallow, pathetic, cowardly, scummy, unintelligent, and overall worthless. I doubt I am the only one who feels this way. Deal with it.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:25, Blogger Cassiopeia said...

Yeah, we're all neo-con Bush lovin' rag head hatin' Fox News devotees here...

FYI: My politics are center left and I was deeply opposed to the Iraq war. My own particular interest in 9.11 conspiracy idiocy stems from the fact I was living in NYC on the day the towers came down. Several colleagues lost loved ones - the grief and destruction of that day was very real to me. Also, living on 57th Street I walked past the CBS building every day. And every day I saw the families queueing up to get pictures of loved ones out on air. Loved ones that wouldn't come back. Within 24 hours of 9.11 I'd been told by a Jewish friend that 'no Arabs were in the towers', and within 48 hours an Afghani friend had told me that 'no Jews were in the towers'. I thought that was offensive sh*t then and I find it just as offensive today. CT'ers do absolutely nothing to oppose Bush et al. You live in a cosy fantasy world where you're 'in on the big secret'. Nice and safe. You're entitled to your views but don't kid yourself you're doing anything useful from behind your computer.
The right have got abortion clinic bombers, the left unfortunately are saddled with embarrassments like you.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:28, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

deal with it? im thriving on it.

when u come down to ground zero, if uve got the guts, will u tell alex jones hes disgusting? or will u keep being the anonymous hardman that the internet caters for so well?

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:31, Blogger telescopemerc said...

deal with it? im thriving on it.

OK, you are a troll in addition to being a disgusting human being.

when u come down to ground zero, if uve got the guts, will u tell alex jones hes disgusting? or will u keep being the anonymous hardman that the internet caters for so well?

*Yawn*. Do let us know when you have a real point to make instead of cheesy toddler taunting, m'kay?

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:31, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

when i saw the people on that day jumping from the windows i cried. then when i realised that that we been spun a pile of shite for the reasons for it i got angry. if that makes me an embarrassment then i am happy to be one

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:32, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

toddler taunting? is that like when u dare people to come to jref?

u still havent answered, ground zero yes or no?

ive got to cross the atlantic to get there, uve gotta drive a few miles

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:37, Anonymous Anonymous said...

look how burke wonderfully understates the case that civilian casualties "suck"

my god you're anal. I didn't understate anything you little weasel. I guess that's why you had to quote precisely 1 word from my statement, eh?

burke if ur family were killed by bombs would u claim it "sucks"

Does "it sucks" mean something different in England that I'm not aware of?

Do you have any evidence that the U.S. government was involved in 9/11 yet?

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:39, Anonymous Anonymous said...

when i saw the people on that day jumping from the windows i cried.

You want to get in some emotional pissing contest, now?

Evidence PD, do you have it or not?
If you don't you're just impugning the good name of people strange to you.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:39, Blogger CHF said...

Still waiting for that proof...

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:40, Blogger Cassiopeia said...

Paul: look a few posts up. If I'd been caught out lying like that, you know what? I'd apologise and slink off feeling throughly humiliated. Have a little grace. At least come up with a new login. Obviously you'd have to stop typing like a 12 year old though or we'd rumble you.

Cos wehn u r caught lyeing n ur posts look liek this its hard for peple to take u sriously.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:42, Blogger JoanBasil said...

pdoherty,
I've skimmed through this bilge and no one's proved anything to you because they have no proof. Colin Powell promised to produce a "white paper" proving Osama bin Laden was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and then went back on that promise because, obviously, there is no proof. Its like the theories of the 2 towers collapsing because of fire - computer and paper generated hypotheticals that ignore other possibilities. But look at that new poll figure that 28% of Americans believe the government is "mostly lying."

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:44, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

joanbasil u are indeed an oasis in this desert of delusion.

these people admit there isnt evidence against osama. that condaleeza bird fromised to show it and never did

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:45, Blogger Alex said...

I've skimmed through this bilge and no one's proved anything to you because they have no proof.

It's because Da JOOOOOOS did it, right Joan?

But look at that new poll figure that 28% of Americans believe the government is "mostly lying."

Yay! You're not a minority any more! Well, ok, you are, but like, well, you're outnumbering the Flat Earthers easily! And you almost got more followers than the UFO's-in-Roswell crowd! Aren't numbers grand?

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:46, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

cassiopedo why do u insult all 12 year olds. my niece is 12 and she wouldnt dream of writing as badly as i do. its quicker to type this way, and far less anal

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:47, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

alex has Dre Eccles emailed you yet? please answer

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:48, Blogger Stevew said...

Joan
For my understanding. Do you have any expertise in building design or demolition? Any mechanical design of any kind?
It is only the whaks that say the towers were brought down by fire

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:50, Blogger Cassiopeia said...

JoanBasil - nice appeal to popularity. A similar figure still think Iraq was connected to 9.11, are they right too? You know what, even if 99.99% of the population thought it was an inside job they'd still all be wrong.
Lots of people can be wrong. The viewing figures of American Idol should tell you as much.

Oh, and while you're sticking up for your new British chum Joan, why not offer an opinion on the fact he's been caught out LYING?

Oh, and Paul: if anal means not typing like an idiot, lying and actually caring about facts and logic, well I don't want to be...er...unanal.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:50, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've skimmed through this bilge and no one's proved anything to you because they have no proof.

a partial list:

-video of OBL claiming responsibility (from Al-Jazeera)

-video of OBL during panning stages of the attack (from Al-Jazeera)

-martyrdom videos of some of the hijackers (from Al-Jazeera)

-records and eye-witness testimony of hijackers attending flight schools specifically to train on passenger jets

-expert testimony from instructors that the hijackers were capable of flying the airplanes into buildings.

-A history of terrorist attacks by Al-Qaeda, before and after 9.11

-Moussaui's admission of knowledge of the plot.

Now, I repeat, what is your evidence of U.S. government complicity?

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:53, Blogger Alex said...

if anal means not typing like an idiot, lying and actually caring about facts and logic, well I don't want to be...er...unanal.

.... must .... suppress .... dirty .... comment ..... ARGH!

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:55, Blogger Cassiopeia said...

Alex: what you mean there is another meaning?!
I'm shocked I tell you. Shocked.

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:58, Blogger Stevew said...

Burke
I have some more at home but you would think that the fact that OBL actually admitted it and declared war against us in the late 90's that people would actually take him seriously. I think it may take another 911 to actually wake up these fools

 
At 17 October, 2006 15:59, Blogger CHF said...

Its like the theories of the 2 towers collapsing because of fire

Yes Joan. Just cuz of fire. It's not like a fucking airliner flew into it at 500mph!

Experts "ignore other possibilities" because those "other possibilities" are retarded. A controlled demolition that doesn't look, sound or behave like a demolition? Yeah lets look into that!

But look at that new poll figure that 28% of Americans believe the government is "mostly lying."

You and your polls. Start a political party if you think so many people agree with you.

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:01, Blogger shawn said...

generally speaking the armed forces are rejects who couldnt do any other job

I attempted to join the Marines.

I'm from an upper middle class background, straight A student throughout high school, and got into a great college (and did well there).

joanbasil u are indeed an oasis in this desert of delusion.


You cite one of the most delusional people on here (nesnyc beats her out) as an oasis. God, you're dumb.

"Couldn't do any other job"? Being in the military is probably the toughest job there is.

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:05, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it may take another 911 to actually wake up these fools

I hear ya, man. Of course, now if something horrible happens they're going to point to this thread as evidence that you were in on it the whole time. Careful!

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:08, Blogger Alex said...

I think it may take another 911 to actually wake up these fools

Nothing will ever wake them up. They're so bigoted that no matter what happens they'll always assume Muslim extremists are too incompetent to have carried it out, and that it must have been done by those wily Jews, or the evil US Government.

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:11, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

alex have u published the email of our learned proffessor yet?

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:18, Blogger pomeroo said...

Pdoherty76, who continues to ignore all requests that he show us an error in the so-called "official" account, now repeats the ridiculous canard about Bush's nonexistent Nazi connections. He doesn't understand that people on this forum know how to read.
An amusing debunking appeared in the Straight Dope:

Dear Cecil:

I read in the New Yorker that George W. Bush's grandfather and great-grandfather worked for Brown Brothers Harriman, and had clients who funded the building of the Nazi regime. I searched the Net and found hundreds of sites giving volumes of details and listing sources like the New York Times and the Library of Congress. Conspiracy theories aside, what's the truth about our president's family? --Matt Tiegler

Cecil replies:

Remember how during the Clinton era there were all those rabid EOBs (Enemies of Bill) who seemingly devoted their every waking hour to propagating scurrilous stories about the president and his family? Well, an equally dedicated crew is now spreading sensational allegations about Dubya and his forebears. (Sample: the president's grandfather not only financed the Nazis, he used concentration-camp prisoners as slaves.) So each side gets a chance to drag the other through the mud. Is this a great country or what?

Though the Bush family's detractors are legion, one of the most prominent is John Loftus, a former federal prosecutor and past president of the Florida Holocaust Museum in Saint Petersburg. In 1994 Loftus coauthored a book with Mark Aarons entitled The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People. The book alleges various misdeeds by George W.'s father, George H.W., his grandfather, Prescott Bush, and his great-grandfather, George Herbert Walker. Since space is limited we'll focus on the accusations against Prescott Bush, which in my opinion are the most serious.

The central charge against Prescott Bush has a basis in fact. In 1942, under the Trading With the Enemy Act, the U.S. government seized several companies in which he had an interest. Prescott at the time was an investment banker with Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), which had funneled U.S. capital into Germany during the 1920s and '30s. Among the seized companies was the Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York, which was controlled by German industrialist Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen had been an early financier of the Nazi party--in fact, in 1941 he published a book entitled I Paid Hitler. Ergo, Prescott helped finance the Nazis.

An article by journalist Toby Rogers posted on Loftus's Web site makes an even more explosive charge. Another company in which Prescott and his associates had a stake was the Silesian-American Corporation (SAC), which owned several industrial concerns in Poland. The Auschwitz death camp was established in a district where SAC already had a steel plant. The plant allegedly used forced labor from Auschwitz during World War II. The article asserts that "a portion of the slave labor force in Poland was 'managed by Prescott Bush,' according to a Dutch intelligence agent." (See www.john-loftus.com/Thyssen.asp.)

The slave labor charge is easy to dismiss. SAC plants in Poland were taken over by the German government after the Nazi invasion of 1939, and the Auschwitz prison camp wasn't established until 1940. No one can seriously claim that Prescott Bush managed camp inmates in any of those plants.

Prescott's involvement with Nazi finance is more complicated. Though Thyssen had been an ardent backer of the Nazis in the early days, he broke with them in 1938 after the Kristallnacht pogrom against the Jews. He fled to Switzerland the following year, and Hitler confiscated his fortune and stripped him of his citizenship. In I Paid Hitler Thyssen confessed his role in financing the Nazis and denounced the Führer. Arrested in Vichy France, he spent the balance of the war as an Axis prisoner. Prescott Bush, for his part, owned a single share of stock (of 4,000) in UBC, the Thyssen bank. According to a 2001 Boston Globe piece, the New York Herald Tribune ran a story in July 1942 headlined "Hitler's Angel Has 3 Million in US Bank," in which Prescott and other BBH partners "explain[ed] to government regulators that their position [as directors of UBC] was merely an unpaid courtesy for a client."

So, did Bush and his firm finance the Nazis and enable Germany to rearm? Indirectly, yes. But they had a lot of company. Some of the most distinguished names in American business had investments or subsidiaries in prewar Germany, including Standard Oil and General Motors. Critics have argued for years that without U.S. money, the Nazis could never have waged war. But American business has always invested in totalitarian regimes--witness our dealings with mainland China.

Loftus tells me there's more to it than that. He says that the value of German industrial assets in which Bush and friends invested increased during World War II, in part due to slave labor, and that Bush benefited from this increase when the assets were returned--supposedly he got $1.5 million when UBC was liquidated in 1951. I'll buy the claim that Bush got his share of UBC back--it was an American bank, after all--but the idea that his German holdings increased in value despite being obliterated by Allied bombs is ridiculous.

--CECIL ADAMS

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:22, Blogger pomeroo said...

One more comment: No, pdoherty, you didn't realize that we'd been spun a pile of shit. Your irrational hatred of America compels you to disregard a mountain of evidence to embrace a lunatic, wholly fabricated theory that casts America in the worst possible light. Your beliefs are unfalsifiable, which, coupled with your manifest ignorance, makes a mockery of your pretensions to a scientific background.

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:29, Blogger Stevew said...

It is amazing that people don't look into the backgrounds of these terrorists, their leaders are well educated and a lot were educated here

 
At 17 October, 2006 16:40, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

pomeroo u keep believing that governments are peace loving hippies that care about u and ill keep living in reality. Deal?

 
At 17 October, 2006 17:02, Blogger shawn said...

pomeroo u keep believing that governments are peace loving hippies that care about u and ill keep living in reality. Deal?

You might want to look up "strawman".

 
At 17 October, 2006 17:07, Anonymous Anonymous said...

pomeroo u keep believing that governments are peace loving hippies that care about u and ill keep living in reality.


I suddenly feel very sad for the British. You're totally ruining my image of the British as a fastidious and educated people. Yeah, I know PD, you hate us Americans. Don't bother, we hear it ad nauseum. I just wanted to thank you for ruining a perfectly good cultural stereotype for me.

Oh well, at least Kate Bush is making albums again.

 
At 17 October, 2006 17:17, Blogger pdoherty76 said...

ur taste in music is very tame. i dont hate americans, how can i when my hero alex jones is one?

 
At 17 October, 2006 17:30, Blogger pomeroo said...

Yes, Shawn, your comment is right on the money. The problem with pdoherty is that he is a fraud, like the rest of the conspiracy liars. Alex Jones is his hero, right? What has Jones demonstrated to be wrong in the NIST report, in the Popular Mechanics book, on 911myths.com...ah, it gets so tiresome. C'mon, pdoherty, we've all noticed that you run from challenges. Tell us what persuaded you that the fantasists are on to something. Show us what you've got.

 
At 17 October, 2006 17:36, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i dont hate americans, how can i when my hero alex jones is one?

Riiiiiiggght, you just think we're baby-killing fascists.

Found any evidence of U.S. complicity in 9/11 yet?

I just realized something. There's no evidence the U.S. was involved in the attacks because it was really the British behind the attacks. Just like 7/7. It was Blairhitler all along.

 
At 17 October, 2006 17:41, Blogger Stevew said...

CHF
Fires adise the towers were hit with from 4-8X the kinetic energy that they were designed to with stand, thats just for starters

 
At 18 October, 2006 06:11, Blogger Manny said...

I suddenly feel very sad for the British. You're totally ruining my image of the British as a fastidious and educated people.

Heh. Any country's population's fastidiousness and level of education and/or intelligence is going to fall on a curve. Even if the British curve occurs mostly to the right of most other countries' curves, there's still a left-side tail. Apparently a very, very long left-side tail.

 

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