Friday, December 17, 2010

How Dumb Can You Get?

Not much dumber than this post over at Flogger:
Hani Hanjour, supposedly on Flight 77, was about 5 feet tall and the other hijackers ranged from 5.5 to 5' 7". They were of slim build.

Captain Charles Burlingame of Flight 77 was over 6 feet, a Navy Captain, weight lifter, and a boxer. The OCT says pilots like him gave up their planes to these puny weaklings with box cutters? The story makes no sense.

How tall is a man strapped in a pilot's seat?

And check out the rest of the post:
here are many ways the 6 foot men on the flights could have overcome them.
1. Take a seat cushion as a shield, and punch the hijackers out.
2. Pour hot tea or coffee in their face, then move in to disarm them.
3. Throw luggage at them, then move in for the tackle
4. Take a scarf or towel and snap them in the face
wrap their hand, then turn the box cutter on them.
5. Two or more passengers could overpower each one of the hijackers
6. Push the snack cart down the middle and ram the hijackers
7. Take a fire extinguisher, spray at the terrorists, then move in.

Any more ideas?

Yeah, I got a couple:

8. Kick sand in their faces.
9. Say, "Boxcutters, haha!" And make it sting.

It's tempting to say, oh, that's just one idiot at Flogger. But look at the post below that by Glenn Zarmanov:
It should be an insult to one's intelligence that a national emergency occurred on 9/11, the date the same as the number for emergency, 911.

Glenn, comparing your intelligence to that of an opossum would be an insult to marsupials.

Meanwhile, over at Troof Action, they are just now coming to the conclusion that David Ray Griffin is either non compos or a fraud.

False dichotomy, people!

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130 Comments:

At 17 December, 2010 20:54, Blogger Ian G. said...

These comments really do reveal a lot about your average truther, like how he apparently thinks real life is like a shitty Steven Segal movie. This is probably because he spends a lot of his time watching shitty Steven Segal movies at 2am in his parents basement.

 
At 17 December, 2010 20:58, Blogger Ian G. said...

And even if bigger men on the planes could have done what the truthers fantasize about, what's to say they even thought of it? The malevolent brilliance of 9/11 was that it took everything we thought we knew about aircraft hijackings (Stay calm, do what they tell you. They're going to land in Cuba, demand cash and/or the release of prisoners, and then let you go.) and used it against us. The passengers on 11, 175, and 77 probably never even thought to try to fight back.

Of course, the idiots at flogger don't bother with what happened on UA 93, where they DID fight back....

 
At 18 December, 2010 03:31, Blogger paul w said...

It's just another example of the truther delusion; that they are all heroes.

"If I were the pilot, I would have...blah,blah,blah."

I'd like to buckle one of these truther cretins into a pilot seat, and attack them with a dummy knife.

It would make a fascinating youtube video.

 
At 18 December, 2010 03:42, Blogger paul w said...

And, another example of the moronic thought process of a truther is this 6' vs. 5'.5" thing, as if size has anything to do with it?

I have a friend who is about five foot five.

I'm 6'2".

He's a fifth degree Hapkido master.

I'm fucked.

 
At 18 December, 2010 06:16, Blogger Pat said...

Yep, Paul, and we know that several of the hijackers took lessons on close-quarters fighting at a gym. And as Ian said, the Troofers are engaging in 9-12 thinking on 9-11. Yes, nowadays that list of 7 suggestions are exactly what the passengers would do if somebody tried to hijack a plane.

 
At 18 December, 2010 08:44, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

I can never figure out what Bizarremanov thinks he's discovered. A 9/11 clue was planted on The Simpsons, but we weren't supposed to notice it? The U.S. emergency number is 911, we were meant to make the connection, but... huh? What? If DRG is a master at connecting bogus dots, Zarmanov is still learning to color inside the lines.

 
At 18 December, 2010 08:59, Blogger Garry said...

How many of these troofers could handle themselves in a fight, particularly one in which their opponent had a blade?

 
At 18 December, 2010 10:22, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"The OCT says pilots like him gave up their planes to these puny weaklings with box cutters? The story makes no sense."

This reminds me of a South Park episode where Johnny Cockran presented the Chewbacca Defense witha little twisting of my own:

""Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. (shows a picture of Chewbacca) Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending the truth that 9/11's an Inside Job, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin the Emancipation ,[approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must aquit! The defense rests."

 
At 18 December, 2010 10:42, Blogger Len said...

I imagine many of these morons are in there teens or early 20's thus would have been kids on 9/11 and have little conception of what the world was like before it.

 
At 18 December, 2010 10:44, Blogger snug.bug said...

Monday-morning quarterbacking is easy, but it's hard not to indulge in some movie-type scenarios and wonder "What if"?

In the towers , I wonder why people didn't tear up the carpets and cut holes in them to make ladders so they could climb down outside to lower floors. I wonder why they didn't use fire hoses to make slings to lower people to lower floors. I wonder why they didn't chop holes in the floors to bypass the stairways. I'll suppose complacency became hopeless panic pretty quick.

In the planes obviously there would be a great inhibition about challenging the hijackers--except on flight 93 where they knew what the plan was. And even then if the guys killed a couple of passengers and then held the knife to the throat of one of the passengers, it would be a tough call to challenge them.

Michael Moore has pointed out that attache cases can be pretty effective both defensively and offensively. Blankets and pillows were available. Cut loose a seat belt and the buckle spinning on the end of a long strap would make a pretty intimidating weapon. Buckles cut loose could be thrown.

Ultimately, of course, there's reason to believe the passengers did take control both of the cabin and the cockpit of flight 93.

As to how truthers fight, Garry, well there's wimpy ones and there's tough ones, just like everyone else. I've run across a lot of bullies in the course of my truth work, some of them much larger than I, but I never met one who wasn't a coward at heart.

 
At 18 December, 2010 10:53, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"Ultimately, of course, there's reason to believe the passengers did take control both of the cabin and the cockpit of flight 93."

Brian,

There's reason to believe that you're wrong about that. YouTube has alot of voice recordings from Flight 93. Those passengers tried to take control of the plane. You're lying like a good little TM sheep!

 
At 18 December, 2010 11:09, Blogger snug.bug said...

Oh, and Pat, actually the truthaction crowd were questioning David Ray Griffin's judgment as far back as when he appeared in Japan on stage with a holocaust denier, and certainly by the time that he endorsed Kevin Barrett's congressional campaign two years ago. His fiasco with the airphones, his persistent speculations about voice morphing, and his endorsement of CIT last year have all inspired much criticism there.

 
At 18 December, 2010 11:21, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

Let me repeat this!

The Truth Movement is really a Communist Movement:

The origins of communism are debatable, and there are various historical groups, as well as theorists, whose beliefs have been subsequently described as communist. Some theorists have considered hunter-gatherer societies to adhere to a form of primitive communism, whilst historical figures like Plato and Thomas More have been described as espousing early forms of the ideology.

So Brian Good is a communist scumbag?

 
At 18 December, 2010 11:30, Blogger Garry said...

'As to how truthers fight, Garry, well there's wimpy ones and there's tough ones, just like everyone else. I've run across a lot of bullies in the course of my truth work, some of them much larger than I, but I never met one who wasn't a coward at heart'.

Brian, all you troofers are 'cowards at heart'.

 
At 18 December, 2010 11:38, Blogger snug.bug said...

Yeah right, that's why we do street actions and question public officials and stand up to the abuse from foam-spraying yahoos and keep on after vandalism to our vehicles and strange phone calls--cause we're cowards.

Unlike you, of course, who heroically huddles with a bunch of like-minded liars at an obscure website.

 
At 18 December, 2010 11:41, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"Unlike you, of course, who heroically huddles with a bunch of like-minded liars at an obscure website."

Brian's obviously having a mental meltdown. It's probably caused by Thermite, nano-thermite & explosives that cause his brain to melt into a pool of goo.

 
At 18 December, 2010 11:46, Blogger Ian G. said...

In the towers , I wonder why people didn't tear up the carpets and cut holes in them to make ladders so they could climb down outside to lower floors. I wonder why they didn't use fire hoses to make slings to lower people to lower floors. I wonder why they didn't chop holes in the floors to bypass the stairways. I'll suppose complacency became hopeless panic pretty quick.

Like I often say, I come here for the entertainment value of reading Brian Good's abject insanity. It doesn't get much better than the above.

I'm sure that if only Cantor Fitzgerald had employed our little Brian to mop their floors, he could have heroically saved all those people by making ladders out of carpets. The he and his fellow hero Willie Rodriguez could ride off into the sunset in each others arms!

Yeah right, that's why we do street actions and question public officials and stand up to the abuse from foam-spraying yahoos and keep on after vandalism to our vehicles and strange phone calls--cause we're cowards.

Oh, such immense courage! Brian, the guy who stood in front of the tank in Tienanmen Square doesn't hold a candle to you in the courage and dignity department.

Unlike you, of course, who heroically huddles with a bunch of like-minded liars at an obscure website.

This from a guy who spends 18 hours a day stalking Kevin Barrett, Willie Rodriguez, and Carol Brouillet on his computer.

Brian, sometimes I think you must be an act. It's not possible for someone to be as much of an obsessed lunatic and delusional liar as you are, is it?

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:08, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, probably if I'd been at Cantor Fitzgerald my complacency would have turned to hopeless panic, though I probably would have given breaking a hole in the floor a try. If you had enough people working on it, taking turns, it could be done.

Of course, for it to be of any practical use you'd need people on several floors breaking through simultaneously, but it would have been worth a try.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:14, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

There's nothing like seeing a demonic, paranoid, communist turd like Brian "NoGood" squirm in his seat.

Brian would piss his pants if R. Lee Ermy said this to him:

"Who said that? Who the fuck said that? Whose the little communist shit twinkle toed cocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant?"

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:17, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"hough I probably would have given breaking a hole in the floor a try."

Brian,

Riiiight, problem is, you'd have to have a jack hammer to get through the floor numbnuts!

4 inches of concrete, not to mention a sheet of of metal to get through.

You are a brainless fungus!

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:21, Blogger Ian G. said...

I'm sure they could've have extinguished the fires if they all blew really hard at once. And if that didn't work, they probably could have fashioned their sportcoats into parachutes!

Seek professional help, Brian.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:23, Blogger Ian G. said...

BTW, I love that the title of this post is "How Dumb Can You Get?" and it features Punxsutawney Petgoat Good babbling about making carpets into ladders and busting through the floors to escape from the WTC towers.

Well, apparently there is an answer to the above rhetorical question, and the answer is "as dumb as Brian Good."

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:24, Blogger snug.bug said...

WAQ, you don't know about concrete. So if you were in Cantor Fitzgerald, would you be desperately calling for a helicopter to bring you a jackhammer?

Concrete actually breaks pretty easy if you're persistent. Once you get a crack started you just work from there. Once you had a small hole through it's not difficult to enlarge it.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:27, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian "can't-do" strikes again. The debunker movement is living proof that the US empire is sinking into terminal decay. I bet you guys don't even know how to fix a flat tire.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:27, Blogger Ian G. said...

So if you were in Cantor Fitzgerald, would you be desperately calling for a helicopter to bring you a jackhammer?

No, I'd be desperately calling for a modified attack baboon to bring me a teleportation device so I could instantaneously beam myself to a beach in Aruba and away from that nasty smoke-filled office on the 104th floor of 1 WTC.

Concrete actually breaks pretty easy if you're persistent.

Can you demonstrate, Brian? Can you record a youtube video of yourself breaking concrete with your head so we can see?

Once you get a crack started you just work from there. Once you had a small hole through it's not difficult to enlarge it.

I'm fascinated. Please give us a demonstration.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:30, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"The debunker movement is living proof that the US empire is sinking into terminal decay. I bet you guys don't even know how to fix a flat tire."

Brian,

Unlike you, we don't shit on the U.S. Constitution or use it as toliet paper everyday.

There are kits out there to fix a flat tire you imbicile. You can buy them at your local auto store.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:30, Blogger Ian G. said...

Ian "can't-do" strikes again. The debunker movement is living proof that the US empire is sinking into terminal decay. I bet you guys don't even know how to fix a flat tire.

More mindless babbling from our resident obsessed liar and sex stalker.

And if the US is in trouble (I think it is), it's because of a culture in which hopeless imbeciles believe themselves to be experts on things that are far beyond their intellectual capacities. You and Sarah Palin are great examples of this.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:32, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"WAQ, you don't know about concrete. So if you were in Cantor Fitzgerald, would you be desperately calling for a helicopter to bring you a jackhammer?"

Brian,

I do know about concrete, obviously you think you can just grab a metal chair or lamp & bust your way through it.

I'd be calling for the helicopter & not a jack hammer. That's just stupid on your part!

You're falling apart Brian! LMAO!

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:37, Blogger snug.bug said...

I've never held myself out as an expert, though I have had more experience than most in breaking concrete.

Phony experts are to be expected in a democracy, they are only a threat to the extent that the people are gullible. Thus is not charlatans who are the danger--it is the ones like you who create a climate of complacent acceptance of total bullshit simply based on your brainless faith in authority.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:40, Blogger Ian G. said...

Phony experts are to be expected in a democracy, they are only a threat to the extent that the people are gullible.

Right, which is why 9/11 truth is not a threat. Nobody has fallen for the shenanigans of obvious frauds like Richard Gage and David Ray Griffin.

Thus is not charlatans who are the danger--it is the ones like you who create a climate of complacent acceptance of total bullshit simply based on your brainless faith in authority.

Poor petgoat, he's upset that I just laugh at his lies.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:42, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"Thus is not charlatans who are the danger--it is the ones like you who create a climate of complacent acceptance of total bullshit simply based on your brainless faith in authority."

Brian,

Sounds like you're describing yourself. Amazing!

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:45, Blogger Ian G. said...

Brian, there are some things I would take your expert advice on. I have a few questions:

1, How do you become a truly great obsessed liar? Was it something you were born with, or did you have to work really hard at it?

2, How do you find the time to babble mindlessly about thermite and Willie Rodriguez at the countless websites you troll? Do you function on 4 hours of sleep or less?

3, How do you manage to sexually harass people without facing legal consequences? Have you studied legal precedent to determine where the line is drawn that allows you to be a creepy sex stalker without actually facing jail time for it?

We all want to know, Brian, and since this is your area of expertise, I think you could explain a lot of it.

 
At 18 December, 2010 12:45, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

Unlike Brian, I got a life in the real world.

I'll see you guys on Monday.

And Brian, I'll be back for you. So squeal all you like you communist wanna-be.

 
At 18 December, 2010 13:05, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, at 12:30 you say "the US is in trouble ... because of a culture in which hopeless imbeciles believe themselves to be experts."

At 12:40 you say "9/11 truth is not a threat. Nobody has fallen for the shenanigans of obvious frauds like Richard Gage and David Ray Griffin."

You contradict yourself from one post to the next.

When are you going to stop beating your wife?

 
At 18 December, 2010 14:12, Blogger Ian G. said...

You contradict yourself from one post to the next.

Um, no. There are many issues where frauds and charlatans have gotten a large portion of this country to believe them (Jerry Falwell, anyone?). Mercifully, 9/11 truth is not one of those con games that a lot of Americans have fallen for.

However, your desperate babbling about 9/11 shows how some people are dumb enough to fall for it. That doesn't make Richard Gage any less of a fraud than Jerry Falwell, just a less successful one.

Also, I'm not married. You however, are a deranged liar, lunatic, and sex stalker. This has been proven beyond a doubt.

 
At 18 December, 2010 14:20, Blogger Ian G. said...

Anyway, Brian, I'm bored of this unfair fight between a cool, smart, successful dude like me and a failed liar and lunatic with no friends like you. Let's talk about something else.

What do you think of Cliff Lee going back to the Phillies? What was the best album of 2010? (I'm torn between "Brothers" by the Black Keys and "Halcyon Digest" by Deerhunter.) What's your favorite Coen brothers movie?

 
At 18 December, 2010 14:33, Blogger Garry said...

'Yeah right, that's why we do street actions and question public officials and stand up to the abuse from foam-spraying yahoos and keep on after vandalism to our vehicles and strange phone calls--cause we're cowards.

Unlike you, of course, who heroically huddles with a bunch of like-minded liars at an obscure website'.

Fuck you, you sanctimonious little cocksucker. Fuck you and your pitiful little excuse for a 'movement'.

I know people who have genuinely stood up in the face of real tyrannies, and people who have been genuine victims of abuses of power by those in a position of authority. And I can tell you right now you are not fit to stick matchsticks in their shit.

You think you and your fellow coterie of retards, fuck-ups and fraudsters are a bunch of heroes for standing in the street in a liberal democracy and shouting shitty slogans while waving shitty banners. You do this knowing full well you face no personal consequences for your actions. When did you do time in a jail like Evin, Brian? When were you beaten to a pulp like Oleg Kashin? When did you face any real oppression in your life, other than Joe Citizen telling you to your face what an arsehole you are?

See the links below to see just a few people who identified genuine crimes by their state's governments, and paid a high price (if not the highest price) in doing so. You insult them and many more like them by pretending that somehow you are in their league:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5416238.sthttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11492131m
http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=14614
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/24/cuba-political-hungerstriker-zapata-dies

 
At 18 December, 2010 14:53, Blogger snug.bug said...

Garry, you seem to miss the fact that truthers have lost jobs, they have emptied their bank accounts and undertaken great debts, they have lost marriages and damaged family relationships. Carol Brouillet has received death threats. My car has been vandalized.

You claimed that truthers are cowards at heart. I didn't make any claims about being equal to anyone, I simply provided evidence that you were mistaken and I contrasted the courage of truthers with the denizens of this board, who huddle together for support among the like-minded.

Ian, I think Cliff Lee wastes his life playing a child's game. He could be tiddly wink champion of the world for all I care.

 
At 18 December, 2010 15:09, Blogger Ian G. said...

Garry, you seem to miss the fact that truthers have lost jobs, they have emptied their bank accounts and undertaken great debts

Brian, I know you're not really in touch with reality, but lots of people have had this happen to them over the last 3 years. If truthers have financial problems because they devote their lives to the pursuit of a lunatic conspiracy theory, that's their problem. Nobody told them to become truthers.

Carol Brouillet has received death threats. My car has been vandalized.

And the same has happened to Fred Phelps. I would tell you to go cry to him about what a martyr you are, but he'd probably condemn you to hell for lusting after Willie Rodriguez.

Anyway, isn't it funny how Brian like to talk about how the vast majority of the country is on the side of the truthers, and yet he's whining about how everyone is against him when he goes and rallies on behalf of the truth movement?

 
At 18 December, 2010 15:11, Blogger Ian G. said...

Ian, I think Cliff Lee wastes his life playing a child's game.

Cliff Lee gets paid very well to play said game. I'd love to have his job.

Meanwhile, you get paid nothing to babble like a child on the internet all day. You'd love to have any job.

Anyway, Brian, you're going to need a better attitude if we're going to be friends. So baseball isn't your cup of tea. OK, so what about my other questions? What's your favorite album of 2010? What's your favorite Coen brothers movie?

 
At 18 December, 2010 15:12, Blogger John said...

"What was the best album of 2010?"

I'm torn between LCD Soundsystem's "This is Happening" and Local Natives' "Gorilla Manor". But I've got a lot to listen to yet.

 
At 18 December, 2010 16:47, Blogger M Gregory Ferris said...

"Garry, you seem to miss the fact that truthers have lost jobs, they have emptied their bank accounts and undertaken great debts, they have lost marriages and damaged family relationships. Carol Brouillet has received death threats. My car has been vandalized."

SLC has noted and blogged about this issue. Just like others with compulsive mental problems, Truthers drive away friends and family due to their self-destructive charater flaw. Just as alcoholics blame their spouse for leaving, and their friends for abandoning them while not understanding that it is their behavior that has brought destruction.

Speaking of sad, "How Dumb Can You Get?" is a great example of what happens when people who don't know what they are talking about grasp at shit to support their shit argument.

First off, terrorists are scarey (hence the name)and even in a post 9/11 world where we have seen one dipshit try to light his shoe while another dipshit tried to ignite his underwear we saw them taken down by passengers...a handful of passengers. Even after 9/11 the majority of the people on those planes cowered in fear leaving only a few to do battle. The simple fact is that most people are chicken, and I do not mean this as a knock because I might be one of them.

United 93 was almost retaken by the passengers after the "big guys" mounted an attack, but in the time that it took to nutralize the muscle hijackers, then force their way through the locked cockpit door the remaining hijackers had plenty of time to crash the plane. While this is pure heroism in every way it also should scare the shit out of every sane person.

Finally, what in a standard office could you use to break a hole through concrete? A sledge hammer is not something that you find in the majority of high-end offices. There is footage of one man who used an extension cord to lower himself out of the window but he ran out of cord and fell. There is not enough fire hose to reach the ground, and even lower to a lower floor has problems because you'd have to pass that huge fire on the way. Throw in the fact that the upper floors were filled with smoke within minutes and even just kicking a hole through the drywall at the stairwell would have been a chore.

 
At 18 December, 2010 16:49, Blogger M Gregory Ferris said...

That should read terrorists are scary.

 
At 18 December, 2010 17:16, Blogger Triterope said...

Carol Brouillet has received death threats.

Yeah... but you sent them.

 
At 18 December, 2010 17:31, Blogger Triterope said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 18 December, 2010 21:28, Blogger Pat said...

Brian, you are aware that the floors were 3" concrete poured into steel pans? It would be a little hard to cut through those.

 
At 19 December, 2010 03:58, Blogger Garry said...

'Garry, you seem to miss the fact that truthers have lost jobs',

Proof that they were unemployable morons in the first place.

'they have emptied their bank accounts and undertaken great debts,'

Suckers. Not martyrs.

'they have lost marriages and damaged family relationships'.

Again, whose fault is that?

'Carol Brouillet has received death threats'.

And she managed to get herself a stalker as well, Brian. You.

'My car has been vandalized'.

I'm just shocked that someone saw fit to give a retard like you a driving license.

 
At 19 December, 2010 08:03, Blogger Triterope said...

Brian, you are aware that the floors were 3" concrete poured into steel pans? It would be a little hard to cut through those.

Especially with a maximum time limit of 102 minutes (56 for the south tower). And if you did manage to break through a concrete floor, what next? Break through the 80 floors below it?

This has to go down as one of Brian Good's -- and the Truth movement's -- all-time stupid statements:

In the towers, I wonder why people didn't tear up the carpets and cut holes in them to make ladders so they could climb down outside to lower floors. I wonder why they didn't use fire hoses to make slings to lower people to lower floors. I wonder why they didn't chop holes in the floors to bypass the stairways.

Yeah, I'll bet you wonder why.

 
At 19 December, 2010 08:35, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

Brian, you are aware that the floors were 3" concrete poured into steel pans? It would be a little hard to cut through those.

Yeah -- is this the same "steel reinforced concrete" that should have remained standing? And while it was standing, the occupants should have carved holes in it with office supplies? That's some interesting stuff.

 
At 19 December, 2010 13:06, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"Yeah right, that's why we do street actions and question public officials and stand up to the abuse from foam-spraying yahoos and keep on after vandalism to our vehicles and strange phone calls--cause we're cowards."

Yes this is exactly what the American Nazi party does. Are you saying they to deserve respect? No, thery are kooks, just like truthers.

 
At 19 December, 2010 13:15, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"In the towers , I wonder why people didn't tear up the carpets and cut holes in them to make ladders so they could climb down outside to lower floors." Ect.

WOW! Imagine being so dull of wit ti even imagine this as an option. Proof once again Brian is retarded. And so sad he is so mentally challenged to not even realize just how stupid this is.

SO people were to chop through concrete and steel floors just to get to floors lower down fully involved in massive firee? And for what? They didn't know the building would collapse, yet this idiot janitor wants them to waste time and effort building carpet ladders when the smart thing was to find areas clear of smoke and wait for rescue.

Yep pure genius

 
At 19 December, 2010 13:20, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"Garry, you seem to miss the fact that truthers have lost jobs,"

Yep, that is what happen to people who demonstrate a lack of thinking ability. Who want to hire an idiot who can even see what a scam 9/11 truth is. I would not hire them. I would fire truthers myself so I could hire brighter employes.

 
At 19 December, 2010 13:28, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"Ian "can't-do" strikes again. The debunker movement is living proof that the US empire is sinking into terminal decay. I bet you guys don't even know how to fix a flat tire."

And this from a guy who can't do much more that clean toilets. At your age most intelligent people have meaningful jobs Brian. You will always be a janitor because you are like your fellow truther, worthless people with few skills. Of course to you chopping through floors would seen reasonable, but that is because you lack the intelligence to know better.

Brian would be the kind of guy arranging a bucket brigade on the Titanic.

 
At 19 December, 2010 13:42, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

If the towers had not collapsed it is possible many people would have survived. those would be people who think, find spaces higher up with pockets of air.

If they could get to the roof and the fires had died down helicopter rescue may not have been out of the picture.

 
At 19 December, 2010 14:16, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"What's your favorite Coen brothers movie?"

I prefer Jim Jarmusch, "Night on Earth" is great

I have a fondness for Jean-Pierre Jeunet as well

 
At 19 December, 2010 15:46, Blogger snug.bug said...

What in an office could you use to break through concrete? Lamp bases? Pedestal table bases? Broken sinks, toilet stall doors, mailroom carts? Sprinkler pipe? Table legs? Cubicle dividers? This isn't like concrete on the ground. There's going to be an enormous tensile load when you pound on it, a load it was not designed to resist.

You don't need enough fire hose to reach the ground--just enough to reach a floor where there's no fire.

Look at you--kicking through drywall is too much chore. You don't care if you never see your girlfriend again, huh? If you guys put half as much energy into can-do thinking as can't-do thinking you'd be a lot happier.

As I said, it would be best to attack multiple floors simultaneously, and attack both from above and below. Organizing a mission like that would justify exploring the stairwells even if you could only traverse one story at a time.

I believe that the floors were a special lightweight concrete--whether that means they were softer than ordinary concrete I don't know. The floors had no structural function in terms of bearing the dead load of the tower--only in stabilizing the columns, transferring lateral forces and supporting the live load.

DK, if you would bother to look at the NIST report you would see that none of the floors were "fully involved". Brian Clark walked down from above the impact zone and saw only a few flames, no inferno. There are pictures of people standing in burned-out portions of the tower who did not survive and thus might have benefited from a hole in the floor.

After WTC2 fell, the people in WTC1 had to suppose it was just a matter of time before WTC1 fell.

DK, where did you get the idea that I don't have a meaningful job? Where did you get a copy of my W-2? It's Willie Rodriguez that can't get a meaningful job--cause his livelihood was destroyed when the towers fell.

 
At 19 December, 2010 16:39, Blogger Triterope said...

Brian, that last post of yours was so stupid, I think it actually injured me.

 
At 19 December, 2010 17:03, Blogger snug.bug said...

Unlike y'all, I have actually broken quite a lot of concrete, both with jackhammers and without. It's kind of fun when you know how, and I'd do it again any time.

 
At 19 December, 2010 18:11, Blogger Ian G. said...

Hold on, I have to get some popcorn ready before I read Brian's post on how to break through concrete with "table legs".

 
At 19 December, 2010 18:27, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, it's like chopping down a tree. You can bring in giant hydraulic loppers if you've got 'em. Otherwise you cut it from this side and that side, and you break a little bit out.

The difference is that concrete cracks, and you can use that. When you've got a hole all the way through you can pry against it. And when you've got a groove through, you can bash down the sides of the groove.

Maybe if you knew more about breaking concrete you'd know more about marriage, sonny.

 
At 19 December, 2010 18:50, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"DK, where did you get the idea that I don't have a meaningful job?"

Because with an IQ of 80, only a fool would hire you, unless they took pity on you and had some simple task for you.

 
At 19 December, 2010 18:56, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"Unlike y'all, I have actually broken quite a lot of concrete,"

And you thunk that makes you special? Any idiot can break concrete, but only a true moron would spend time doing something useless like that.

You see Brian because you are so simple of mind stuff like that would seem valid. And why smart people laugh at you.

 
At 19 December, 2010 19:00, Blogger Ian G. said...

Keep going, Brian. I'm going to make more popcorn. Can you talk a little bit more about how to make ladders from carpets and firehose?

On another note, does anyone else find it odd how Brian uses "y'all" all the time? I mean, I didn't think that burnt-out relics from the 1960s/70s New Left era who are still slumming it in the Bay Area would use southern colloquialisms.

 
At 19 December, 2010 20:49, Blogger snug.bug said...

DK, what gives the idea that I have an IQ of 80? Any idiot can try to break concrete, but an idiot is likely to give up before getting very far. Success takes working smart.

So make a ladder from carpet you just cut holes in it, Ian. Any idiot can do it. You don't use the firehose for a ladder. You tie it into a spanish bowline (that's a kind of knot) and you can lower someone to another floor. Maybe if youse guys had been boyscouts instead of campfire girls you would know this stuff. Did you sell a lot of cookies and make a lot of smores?

 
At 19 December, 2010 20:55, Blogger Ian G. said...

What the hell is a campfire girl, Brian?

Also, Brian, what do you think of the idea of using suit jackets as parachutes? All these bankers in the towers must have had suits on.

 
At 19 December, 2010 20:56, Blogger Ian G. said...

One other request, Brian: can you make a video demonstrating you breaking concrete? Can you use your head to break the concrete? I think you could really educate us ignoramuses about this.

 
At 19 December, 2010 22:00, Blogger ajhil said...

I'm not exactly a "Truther" but I do have questions about the events of 9-11 that haven't been answered adequately & I'm bothered by the hostility directed at people who ask such questions.
We're told, for example, that in four out of four instances a handful of minimally trained & physically unimpressive middle eastern men overcame the cockpit crews of the hijacked airplanes. Could have happened, I suppose, but is it wrong to wonder about such uniform success? I don't think so!
Beyond that, we're supposed to believe that two enormous steel & concrete towers collapsed into dust & twisted metal due to the impacts of relatively tiny aircraft & short durations of low level fire. I've read the carefully rationalized explanations, including the initial model put out by N.I.S.T. and I'm just not convinced. There really are fundamental issues here that haven't been adequately addressed. What was the source of energy that tore these buildings into small fragments & turned thousands of tons of high strength concrete into fine dust? Would gravitation do it? I don't think so!
How could victims trapped inside collapsing buildings spread 750+ bone fragments onto the roof of a nearby building? This makes no sense at all according to the official version of events.
Like many serious observers, I make no specific assertions about these & other troubling absurd & intellectually offensive for people on this site to behave as though all such mysteries have been resolved. You sound like fools, when you do, and insulting people who ask the questions doesn't help your case at all!

 
At 20 December, 2010 00:08, Blogger snug.bug said...

Well said. Don't expect an adult response. This place is kindergarten.

 
At 20 December, 2010 00:13, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

I'm not exactly a "Truther" but I do have questions about the events of 9-11 that haven't been answered adequately & I'm bothered by the hostility directed at people who ask such questions.

You're going to hate it here.

 
At 20 December, 2010 04:33, Blogger paul w said...

From Ajhil's blog, his thoughts about hunting (and fishing):

"According to recent statistics, hunters today constitute a dwindling minority in the United States as well as in Europe. While I may not live long enough to see it, I rejoice to think that someday this repulsive activity and the ugly periodicals that celebrate it will disappear from the planet. It can't happen too soon."

I'm off for two weeks of fly fishing.

You can get fucked.

Oh, and I will not bother bother about your comment that reading Field & Steam is like reading a letter from a concentration camp.

It just seems like a typical moronic truther comment.

Anyway, moving on, how ya liking it here?

 
At 20 December, 2010 04:37, Blogger paul w said...

Okay, idiotic comment one:

"we're supposed to believe that two enormous steel & concrete towers collapsed into dust & twisted metal due to the impacts of relatively tiny aircraft & short durations of low level fire.@

Idiotic comment two;

"I've read the carefully rationalized explanations, including the initial model put out by N.I.S.T. and I'm just not convinced. There really are fundamental issues here that haven't been adequately addressed."

Idotic comment three:

"What was the source of energy that tore these buildings into small fragments & turned thousands of tons of high strength concrete into fine dust? Would gravitation do it? I don't think so!"

That's because you're a moron.

Liking it here any better?

 
At 20 December, 2010 05:47, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

ajhil, I've looked into some of your work on S-5 and I have to say, I'm not convinced. You expect us to believe that a modern submarine can be sunk by one small valve sticking open? Or that the S-5 had no metal cutting tools on board? Or that the ship who found her had no radio? I don't think so!

And why was she conveniently "lost" on the ocean floor so this remarkable failure could not be investigated? Why is Wikipedia not permitted to tell us where the wreck is? Just asking questions, so don't get all hostile with me.

 
At 20 December, 2010 06:12, Blogger Garry said...

'We're told, for example, that in four out of four instances a handful of minimally trained & physically unimpressive middle eastern men'

Stop right there.

All the hijackers had undergone military training in Afghanistan from mid-1999. Mohammed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Hani Hanjour and Ziad Jarrah all qualified as pilots (as did Nawaf al-Hamzi). The rest were all trained in unarmed combat.

As someone learning a martial art I am also aware that being 'physically unprepossessing' is no guide to how someone will perform in a fight. And as someone who lives on Planet Earth I know full well that a man with a knife can intimidate unarmed people, particularly if he shows he has will to use his blade.

'overcame the cockpit crews of the hijacked airplanes. Could have happened, I suppose, but is it wrong to wonder about such uniform success? I don't think so!'

It wasn't a 'uniform success' - UA93 was not supposed to crash into a field in Pennsylvania.

Do you want to try again?

 
At 20 December, 2010 06:47, Blogger Ian G. said...

Well said. Don't expect an adult response. This place is kindergarten.

Well, yes. You and your idiot friend ajhil both argue that you just can't believe what happened on 9/11 without a shred of evidence that something else was going on.

I'm sorry, but the incredulity of ignoramuses deserves the kind of response from adults that a kindergarten teacher would give to a child eating paste.

Start acting like an adult, and we'll stop treating you like a child, OK?

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:02, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

ajhil. Just because YOU don't understand the events of 9/11 does not mean WE do not. Questions mean nothing in a reasoned discussion.

Its a logical fallacy called arguing "argumentum ad ignorantiam" It's used all the time by people who want to promote some conspiracy theory but lack proof of a conspiracy. You see it used by creationist all the time "I can't understand how evolution works, so god must have done it" " I can't understand how photos from the Moon look like that, it must be fake" And on and on.

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:06, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"I'm sorry, but the incredulity of ignoramuses deserves the kind of response from adults that a kindergarten teacher would give to a child eating paste."

It si used by children all the time, The "BUT... DADDY....WHY???" Most children learn to grow out of it.

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:11, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

"physically unimpressive middle eastern men overcame the cockpit crews of the hijacked airplanes."

So, You are not aware they also said they had bombs. This alone has worked to hijack aircraft before 9/11. Before 9/11 flight crew were taught to do as the hijacker said and to let professionals deal with them when the plane reached its destination. 9/11 changed that idea.

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:19, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

ajhil

So you are not aware very little concrete was used in the towers above ground level? Steel, Glass, aluminum cladding and only 4 inch lightweight concrete on each floor for a solid base for walking on. All the walls were 3/4" wallboard with additional 5/8" in some areas.

All that dust you see is easily pulverized drywall, fireproofing/insulation and smoke from the fires.

You see, if you know what you are talking about, questions vanish.

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:19, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

Wow, Brian hasn't much to say. Just keeps on repeating about Willie & using cut-up carpet as a "ladder".

Little does Brian know, carpet melts & burns in a fire. So using it as a "ladder" in a 110 story building is insane.

And Brian, told ya I'd be back.......to ram your arm up your own ass.

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:30, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

Would gravitation do it? I don't think so!

Yes, if you truly understand physics. Energy can not be lost, so imaging the energy that went into lifting a multi ton steel beam 1300 feet into the air. All That potential gravitational energy is stored in the beam until it falls, all that energy is released. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands tons of steel, drywall, furniture, computers, books and even people.

You will note no real structural engineers questions this, they understand. You won't find one engineers who had actually designed buildings over 20 stories saying otherwise. Only third rate architects like Gage.

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:35, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"Only third rate architects like Gage."

On a note about Richard Gage, he's not an architect, he's more of a fire prevention type of guy who studied about fire's in buildings for over 20 yrs. Why on Earth he renounces his 20+ yr. study for Conspiracy Theories is beyond common sense.

 
At 20 December, 2010 09:40, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

ajhil

And don't imagine yourself a true liberal/progressive because you Question the reality of 9/11.

True liberals are people who are not suckers to conspiracy theorist bullshit that plays on anti establishment emotions. True liberals treat truther with the same regard they treat Birthers. Remember Birthers only have questions too.

 
At 20 December, 2010 11:04, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, there is much evidence that something else was going on. Warnings ignored, the alleged perps allowed to walk or fly out of Afghanistan, lack of air defense, and cover-up investigations are all evidence.

DK, congratulations on some most uncharacteristically adult answers. You're wrong about "little concrete", though. There was 180,000 tons of the stuff, 230 acres of floors. Pulverized. The floor slabs were not there at the site, so obviously they went out in the dust clouds. Dust was 4" thick all over lower Manhattan.

Questions vanish if you make up your facts.

WAQo, your gay fantasies about me are repulsive and creepy. Why don't you troll GutterBall? He likes that butch stuff.

DK, most structural engineers were surprised when the towers fell. 40 structural engineers at Architects and Engineers and over 1300 other arhictectural and engineering professionals are demanding new investigations.

Yes the towers' potential energy is a very big gee-whiz number--a number that the gee-whiz number of structural components was designed to resist with a considerable safety factor. Add in the fact that your potential energy also must expend energy in breaking a gee-whiz number of structural connections and pulverizing 180,000 tons of concrete and you've got a problem.

It's amusing that you cite the "argumentum ad ignorantiam" argument, which when combined with the straw man is a staple around here. I just can't imagine how gangs of attack baboons could install explosives and how a conspiracy of thousands could be kept quiet or how a dumbass like Bush could pull it off.

 
At 20 December, 2010 11:39, Blogger Ian G. said...

Ian, there is much evidence that something else was going on. Warnings ignored, the alleged perps allowed to walk or fly out of Afghanistan, lack of air defense, and cover-up investigations are all evidence.

Um, no, that's just paranoia on your part. You should see a psychiatrist about getting that treated.

Dust was 4" thick all over lower Manhattan.

Again, it speaks volumes about your deficient intellect that you immediately assume the dust was from concrete, just as you immediately assume the metal pouring from WTC 2 was iron.

DK, most structural engineers were surprised when the towers fell. 40 structural engineers at Architects and Engineers and over 1300 other arhictectural and engineering professionals are demanding new investigations.

False and nobody cares.

And then there's more babbling about "meatball on a fork" and Brian trying to turn around "argumentum ad ignorantiam". Brian, the problem is that you have no evidence for what you believe. You say, "I don't believe the towers could have fallen like that, thus it must have been magic thermite elves in the elevator shafts". We ask you for evidence, you provide none.

If we say "I don't believe they could have wired the towers for demolition", it's simply complementing the utter lack of evidence of any demolition.

 
At 20 December, 2010 12:20, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

Questions vanish if you make up your facts.

They also appear when you do that.

DK, most structural engineers were surprised when the towers fell. 40 structural engineers at Architects and Engineers and over 1300 other ar[c]hictectural and engineering professionals are demanding new investigations.

That's an excellent example of how to misleadingly connect two factual dots. Most structural engineers are NOT demanding new investigations; doesn't that outweigh the ones who are?

Say what you want about bug.fuck, he's quite good at constructing arguments that superficially look and sound valid. Learning to spot these is a valuable thinking skill.

I just can't imagine how gangs of attack baboons could install explosives and how a conspiracy of thousands could be kept quiet or how a dumbass like Bush could pull it off.

And that's indeed the basic problem you're up against. If my choices are that as option a), and unprecedented occurrences as a result of unprecedented conditions as option b), I will go with option b. Most people do. It's the scientifically valid choice.

 
At 20 December, 2010 14:37, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, oh I see. On planet Iananity, going to war to get Osama and then allowing him to walk into Pakistan is not evidence of something going on. It's just business as usual.

Until you provide calculations of the estimated volume of drywall dust versus the 123,000 cubic yards of concrete floors dust, I suggest you avoid the assumption that the dust all over lower Manhattan was drywall. You'd have to divide the floors into phone-booths to pack that much drywall in there.

Ian, I have evidence of NIST's dishonesty, the incomplete nature of its investigation, and the fact that 1400 architects and engineers do not find it convincing.

I don't say I can't believe the towers could have fallen like this. I say NIST's utter failure to explain it is baffling and dismaying.

RGT, no the fact that the incurious, cowardly, and not-terribly bright engineers outnumber the curious, courageous, and intelligent ones is not surprising.

WTC7 was not an unprecedented condition. We've seen spectacular highrise fires in Beijing, Philadelphia, Caracas, and Los Angeles. No collapses. We see a wimpy fire in WTC7 and we get a total collapse.

 
At 20 December, 2010 14:55, Blogger Ian G. said...

Ian, oh I see. On planet Iananity, going to war to get Osama and then allowing him to walk into Pakistan is not evidence of something going on. It's just business as usual.

No, that's more paranoia on your part. A lot of this could be helped by seeing a psychiatrist.

It's really amazing how omnipotent Brian sees the US government as being. The CIA controls everything, and we "let" bin Laden leave. Brian, does the fact that Robert E. Lee spent 2 years beating the Union army in battle after battle mean that Lincoln was secretly in league with the Confederacy?

Ian, I have evidence of NIST's dishonesty, the incomplete nature of its investigation, and the fact that 1400 architects and engineers do not find it convincing.

False. You have evidence of nothing. We, however, have evidence of your mental illness since you can't stop babbling about this.

I don't say I can't believe the towers could have fallen like this. I say NIST's utter failure to explain it is baffling and dismaying.

They explained it. It's not NIST's problem that you're too dumb and ignorant to understand it. I could sit in on a lecture by Michio Kaku on String Theory, but just because I wouldn't understand a word of it doesn't mean he's "dishonest".

RGT, no the fact that the incurious, cowardly, and not-terribly bright engineers outnumber the curious, courageous, and intelligent ones is not surprising.

I love Brian's resentment over the fact that he's a failed janitor while so many other people have successful careers. Life's not fair!!!

We see a wimpy fire in WTC7 and we get a total collapse.

Hey, if a failed janitor and obsessed liar and sex stalker says the fire was "wimpy", who is anyone to argue?

 
At 20 December, 2010 15:25, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, they let bin Laden leave. They knew he was there, Delta Force's plans were vetoed, Afghan allies held Delta Force at gunpoint while al Qaeda personnel moved, only one trail was bombed, there were more journalists than US soldiers at Tora Bora. They let him go.

NIST did not explain the near freefall collapse. They merely declared it inevitable. Get a brain. What's so complicated about string theory?

I do not consider a career as an incurious, cowardly, not very bright, and socially irresponsible engineer to be a success, Ian. To each his own, I guess.

Show me pictures of the fires at WTC7 Ian. They're wimpy compared to fires at buildings that did not collapse in Beijing, Caracas, Los Angeles, and Philadelphia. I notice that you haven't yet provided any photos to prove your claims that there were big fires when the molten iron poured out of WTC2.

 
At 20 December, 2010 15:50, Blogger Ian G. said...

Ian, they let bin Laden leave. They knew he was there, Delta Force's plans were vetoed, Afghan allies held Delta Force at gunpoint while al Qaeda personnel moved, only one trail was bombed, there were more journalists than US soldiers at Tora Bora. They let him go.

Wow, Brian, for a failed janitor living in California, you sure know a lot about this! What was bin Laden wearing when he was let go?

NIST did not explain the near freefall collapse. They merely declared it inevitable. Get a brain. What's so complicated about string theory?

Can you explain string theory to me, Brian?

I do not consider a career as an incurious, cowardly, not very bright, and socially irresponsible engineer to be a success, Ian. To each his own, I guess.

Nobody cares what you consider incurious, cowardly, dumb, and irresponsible since you're a deranged liar and lunatic who is a known sex stalker of both women and men.

Show me pictures of the fires at WTC7 Ian.

No. Learn to Google. I just found the lyrics to "Hooch" by The Melvins with Google, it's such a wonderful resource.

They're wimpy compared to fires at buildings that did not collapse in Beijing, Caracas, Los Angeles, and Philadelphia.

False.

I notice that you haven't yet provided any photos to prove your claims that there were big fires when the molten iron poured out of WTC2.

Seek professional help.

 
At 20 December, 2010 16:04, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, I know a lot about bin Laden at Tora Bora because I have investigated it, and debated it with ignorant know-it-alls like sackcloth and ashes and others.

 
At 20 December, 2010 16:06, Blogger Ian G. said...

Ian, I know a lot about bin Laden at Tora Bora because I have investigated it, and debated it with ignorant know-it-alls like sackcloth and ashes and others.

Nobody cares, petgoat.

 
At 20 December, 2010 16:17, Blogger paul w said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 20 December, 2010 16:23, Blogger paul w said...

"I'm sorry, but the incredulity of ignoramuses deserves the kind of response from adults that a kindergarten teacher would give to a child eating paste."
Ian G

Ian, I would never talk to a child the way I talked to ajhil.

Kids do dumb things, and that's okay, they're just trying new shit, and (hopefully) learning.

I've read ajhil's comments in here and on his blog; he's a nob.

 
At 20 December, 2010 21:37, Blogger M Gregory Ferris said...

There are four books that cover the CIA/USASOC/JSOC missions to capture/kill bin Laden, and the operations at Tora Bora:

Jawbreaker, the Attack on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, by Gary Berntsen

First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan - by Gary Schroen

Not a Good Day to Die, The untold Story of Operation Anaconda - Sean Naylor.

Kill Bin Laden: A Delta Force Commander's Account of the Hunt for the World's Most Wanted Man - Dalton Fury

And I will throw in a fifth:

The Mission, The Men, and Me: Lessons From a Former Delta Force Commander - Pete Blaber

Spoiler alert:

Bin Laden got away. Why? One of the warlords we were stuck working with called a ceasefire just as we had closed on bin Laden's location. He told us that Al Qaeda was surrendering * suprise* it was a lie. Our forces were stuck working with the warlords because the Bush NSC and the Bush DoD insisted on this.

These are the same guys alleged to have faked the 9/11 attacks.

I mention these books because they make a great last minute X-mas present for yourself or someone you know (don't just thumb through them at the bookstore like Bwian does). I also mention them because they are a great look at actual "Black Ops", and how much work, and how big of an organization it takes just to put 40 commandos into the mountains of central Asia. This would give the average person better insight into the kind of organization needed to pull off the troofer-versions of 9/11.

For the record I have spent 11 years researching the history of a single US Army infantry division. I am familiar with almost everything published about the Army. There are five books on SFOD-D that are worth reading, and two of them are listed here. Anybody who thinks that they have "researched" Delta to a point where they consider themselves knowledgable on that unit and their missions should be given a wide berth because they are obvious fools.

 
At 20 December, 2010 22:09, Blogger snug.bug said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 20 December, 2010 22:13, Blogger Richard Gage's Testicles said...

RGT, no the fact that the incurious, cowardly, and not-terribly bright engineers outnumber the curious, courageous, and intelligent ones is not surprising.

Your position has previously been that the overwhelming silence among engineers means nothing in particular, and that we don't know what most engineers really think about all this. Now you're apparently saying that the majority of engineers are stupid and cowardly, implying that they disagree with you. When did you change your mind?

 
At 20 December, 2010 22:42, Blogger snug.bug said...

M Greg, you do an awful lot of talking about your qualifications, but you have little to say about Tora Bora.

We weren't stuck with the warlords, and this wasn't a black op. If we had a mandate to attack Afghanistan at all, we had a mandate to prosecute the Tora Bora campaign. What was needed was US boots on the ground. But there were more journalists there than US soldiers.

Michael Scheuer told Frontline: "Everyone who was cognizant of how Afghan operations worked would have told Mr. Tenet that [his plan to rely on Afghan warlords] was nuts. And as it turned out, he was.… The people we bought, the people Mr. Tenet said we would own, let Osama bin Laden escape from Tora Bora in eastern Afghanistan into Pakistan."

But Tenet knew exactly how reliable they would be. Supposedly the CIA had for years been paying local tribesmen to kill or capture Osama, but the tribesmen never quite got around to it. See TIME Magazine 8/12/02 "They Had a Plan": "The agency attempted to recruit tribal leaders in Afghanistan who might be persuaded to take on bin Laden.... But the tribal groups' loyalty was always in doubt. Despite the occasional abortive raid, they never seemed to get close to bin Laden."

On December 3 a Christian Science Monitor reporter overheard one of warlords making a deal for safe passage for three al Qaeda (csm 3/4/02).
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0304/p01s03-wosc.html/%28page%29/3


Only one of the roads out of Tora Bora was bombed. See Newsweek 8/18/02 "How Al Qaeda Slipped Away". An eyewitness said "The Americans are stupid. They were bombing the wrong place."

There were reports of helicopter flights out of Tora Bora that might have carried bin Laden out. http://www.newsweek.com/2002/08/18/how-al-qaeda-slipped-away.html



According to the Christian Science Monitor 3/4/02 "How bin Laden got away", the trail to Pakistan crossed a major highway, but nobody was guarding it. So not only was the opportunity there to put thousands of US troops between Osama and Pakistan, they could have had hot meals, showers, and Britney Spears in USO.

By around Dec. 5, General Mattis had 4,000 Marines "in the Afghan theater", thought he could seal the border with these, and wanted to do so. He was turned down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?_r=1&ei=5088&en=b2be68c2558e1937&ex=1284091200&pagewanted=print



Michael Smith claims that "Task Force Sword, comprising more than 2,000 men from Delta, DevGru (the US navy’s former counter-terror unit Seal Team Six) and the Activity, augmented by two SAS squadrons, was ordered to cut off Al-Qaeda troops attempting to flee into Pakistan." Obviously not all these forces were deployed to the Tora Bora area.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article729856.ece The Sunday Times 2/12/06
He then tells this story of what may have been a stand-down: "Bin Laden was located by British signals intelligence experts in a series of caves at Tora Bora in the White Mountains, 25 miles southwest of Jalalabad; but the assault on the caves was badly botched and risk aversion mentality won the day. A combined force of SAS and SBS commandos was just 20 minutes behind Bin Laden, but they were pulled off to allow US troops to go in for the kill. It took several hours for the Americans to get there, by which time he had escaped."

RGT I'm not saying anything about the majority of engineers. I'm saying that I am quite confident that there are considerably more than 1400 incurious, cowardly, and not-very-bright engineers.

 
At 21 December, 2010 06:15, Blogger Ian G. said...

So Brian posts a whole lot of innuendo but never actually posts a shred of evidence that the US deliberately let Osama bin Laden go. Once again, just as with the WTC, Brian's ignorance leads to arguments from incredulity.

RGT I'm not saying anything about the majority of engineers.

False. You slandered millions of people as "incurious, cowardly, not very bright, and socially irresponsible" because you're a bitter, resentful old man who thinks these people are beneath you, and yet you end up as a failed janitor while they have successful careers. Life's not fair!

I'm saying that I am quite confident that there are considerably more than 1400 incurious, cowardly, and not-very-bright engineers.

Sure, especially when you consider that the "engineers" in Richard Gage's group could all be described as incurious, cowardly, and dumb.

 
At 21 December, 2010 09:22, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

Brian is such an idiot, He ask lots of question, argumentum ad ignorantiam but never thinks to ask questions of the conspiracy theorist.

So you say we let Bin laden go... Why? It would have been to our advantage to kill him just for a boost in publicity. Bush would look like a hero. And YOU say we created events that make the US look incompetent?

You see Brian that is an INTELLIGENT question, something you lack the ability to do, seeing as you are so low in IQ (janitor level) and all.

 
At 21 December, 2010 10:40, Blogger snug.bug said...

Ian, I presented quite a lot of evidence that the US let bin Laden go deliberately. They vetoed every plan that Delta force offered to get him. They relied upon mercenaries they had no reason to rely upon. There were 1,000 soldiers of the 10th Mountain Division at K2 airbase in Uzbekistan, just 450 miles away.
http://www.tnr.com/article/the-battle-tora-bora?page=0,2
I forgot to mention the Kunduz airlift, by which 4000 al Qaeda and Taliban fighters were permitted to fly out of Kunduz by a jet shuttle service.

Further evidence of the wish to let Osama go is the claim by Colonel David Hunt, U.S. Army (Ret.), that

"We know, with a 70 percent level of certainty — which is huge in the world of intelligence — that in August of 2007, bin Laden was in a convoy headed south from Tora Bora. We had his butt, on camera, on satellite. We were listening to his conversations.... We had him in our sights; we had done it. Nice job again guys — now, pull the damn trigger. Unbelievably, and in my opinion, criminally, we did not kill Usama bin Laden."
Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304306,00.html

Dave Kyte, the reasons to let Osama go obvious to anyone who gives the issue a bit of thought. Come on, you can do it.

 
At 21 December, 2010 10:45, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"WAQo, your gay fantasies about me are repulsive and creepy. Why don't you troll GutterBall? He likes that butch stuff."

Brian,

Unlike you I'm not gay, I happen to like pussy, like any ordinary man.

Why don't you just give us the evidence, which you say you have, then call it even?

 
At 21 December, 2010 10:49, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

Brain's monologuing like a true Truther.

Question: Is Brian a Patriot or Pinhead?

From the looks of his comments, I have to say PINHEAD.

 
At 21 December, 2010 10:54, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"Ian, I presented quite a lot of evidence that the US let bin Laden go deliberately."

Brain couldn't present a present on Christmas Day, let alone present evidence that he doesn't have.

"Unbelievably, and in my opinion, criminally, we did not kill Usama bin Laden."

Col. Hunt's opinion is not evidence of anything. If you want to blame someone, blame the Clinton Administration.

 
At 21 December, 2010 11:44, Blogger Ian G. said...

Dave Kyte, the reasons to let Osama go obvious to anyone who gives the issue a bit of thought. Come on, you can do it.

Brian, can you please explain to us slack-jawed idiots why the US let bin Laden go? I'm heating up the popcorn now.

 
At 21 December, 2010 12:01, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

Brian, can you please explain to us slack-jawed idiots why the US let bin Laden go? I'm heating up the popcorn now.

Yeah, Brain, don't be a coward, Blind us with your brilliance. Or is thai one of those things you are so proud you don't know?

I know I asked you a hard logical question, but don't cop out on us, show some guts and put me in my place with a clear logical explanation.

And if you can't I will understand, it is because of your mental handicap.

 
At 21 December, 2010 12:37, Blogger snug.bug said...

DK, if it were of any advantage to the government to claim they killed bin Laden, they would have done so. They lie about everything else, why not that?

If bin Laden turned up afterward they could just claim they were mistaken, fog of war and all that. There was no reason to claim they killed him, so they didn't. They leave it to Pakistani politicians and David Ray Griffin to claim that bin Laden is dead.

Think it through, Einstein.

 
At 21 December, 2010 12:41, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"They lie about everything else, why not that?"

Brian, but your mother would be telling you not to lie to people.

Answer the question posed by Ian & Dave:

Can you please explain to us slack-jawed idiots why the US let bin Laden go?

My questions:

Why did they let him go Brian? Why is he in Pakistan?

 
At 21 December, 2010 13:32, Blogger snug.bug said...

I think the exhaust fumes and/or the paint fumes have got to you DK.

They let him go because he was worth more to them alive than dead. Also the Kunduz airlift implies some kind of deal between the USA and al Qaeda.

 
At 21 December, 2010 14:13, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

I think the exhaust fumes and/or the paint fumes have got to you DK.

Even with half a brain I would be your superior in intellect.

Is that what bugs you so much, a smart, talented guy like me treat you like the worthless shit you are?

 
At 21 December, 2010 14:16, Blogger Dave Kyte said...

They let him go because he was worth more to them alive than dead.

In exactly what way?

Also the Kunduz airlift implies some kind of deal between the USA and al Qaeda.

Oh Yeah, sure don't want to break a deal with them

Wow Brian, you are stupid. Is that the best you could come up with?

 
At 21 December, 2010 14:35, Blogger snug.bug said...

Dave, do you know what Dorothy Parker said about horticulture?

 
At 21 December, 2010 15:21, Blogger Ian G. said...

They let him go because he was worth more to them alive than dead. Also the Kunduz airlift implies some kind of deal between the USA and al Qaeda.

I knew Brian wouldn't disappoint. Can you elaborate more on this? How is he "worth more" still alive? I mean, who is profiting from his continued existence? George W. Bush's popularity wouldn't have taken the massives hits it did if he could have claimed "I got bin Laden".

Also, please elaborate more on the Kunduz airlift.

Dave, do you know what Dorothy Parker said about horticulture?

Please, Brian, I'm on the edge of my seat. Tell us what Dorothy Parker said about horticulture.

 
At 21 December, 2010 17:50, Blogger M Gregory Ferris said...

"Michael Smith claims that "Task Force Sword, comprising more than 2,000 men from Delta, DevGru (the US navy’s former counter-terror unit Seal Team Six) and the Activity, augmented by two SAS squadrons, was ordered to cut off Al-Qaeda troops attempting to flee into Pakistan." Obviously not all these forces were deployed to the Tora Bora area."

Of those 2000 men of Task Force Sword less than 40 were Operators from Delta according to Dalton Furry, and less than 12 British special forces operators. The rest of those 2000 were support personel and aviators from the 160th SOAR. The CIA maybe had 60 or so paramilitary operators. So there was no large US force availible.

Your assertions about Tenet are somewhat correct in that the upper management at Langley screwed up by insisting on the use of indigs. However this undermines the whole "Inside Job" theory because Afghanistan has always been a shithole and nobody in their right mind would ever want to deploy forces there. So the idea of using the attacks on 9/11 to illegally invade Afghanistan makes ZERO sense in the context of the troofer narrative. If anything it would have justified invading Saudi Arabia. I mean that's where the premo oil is, right? Most of the hijackers were Saudi, right? Yet we invaded the biggest shitstain of a country on the globe.

The only reason that this makes sense is because that is where Al Qaeda was. We even tried to negotiate with the Taliban for two months to hand over Al Qaeda so we wouldn't have to invade.

So your whole argument suggests that there was no conspiracy because the people who would have carried it out repeatedly demonstrated that they were not intellectually capable of pulling such a large-scale secret operation off. It also demonstrates that in some ways bin Laden and the Al Qaeda leadership were much smarter than the folks at Langley and in Washington DC.

So after all your smugness you've lead us all back to where we started with Al Qaeda hijacking four commercial jetliners and using them as WMDs to crash into the WTC and the Pentagon.

Do you ever get dizzy?

 
At 21 December, 2010 22:01, Blogger snug.bug said...

M Greg, I just said the 10th Mountain Division, 1000 strong, was at K2 500 miles away, and General Mattis had 4,000 Marines "in the Afghan theater". I guess you don't read the posts to which you respond.

The idea of using the attacks, blamed on Osama bin Laden, as a pretext to invade Afghanistan worked brilliantly, so your claim that it was dumb is unconvincing. Invade Saudi Arabia? Why bother? The Saudis were already all kissie-kissie with Bush, and besides, their wells were starting to bring up water. Saddam had the reserves, and he was threatening to sell oil in Euros.

The Afghan invasion makes sense on a number of grounds. My quickly and superficially "winning" the Afghan war, the notion of invading Iraq was made more palatable. It secured the ground for the oil pipeline, and it restored the opium trade. It also provided a playground for war profiteers.

 
At 22 December, 2010 07:29, Blogger Ian G. said...

M Greg, I just said the 10th Mountain Division, 1000 strong, was at K2 500 miles away, and General Mattis had 4,000 Marines "in the Afghan theater". I guess you don't read the posts to which you respond.

Nobody cares, petgoat. Let us know when you finally plan on making an argument with facts and not innuendo, OK?

The idea of using the attacks, blamed on Osama bin Laden, as a pretext to invade Afghanistan worked brilliantly, so your claim that it was dumb is unconvincing.

Ah yes, the invasion of Afghanistan worked brilliantly, which is why we're still stuck there with ever-rising casualties 10 years later. But at least we protected our strategic goat reserves! (apologies to Eddie Izzard)

Invade Saudi Arabia? Why bother? The Saudis were already all kissie-kissie with Bush, and besides, their wells were starting to bring up water. Saddam had the reserves, and he was threatening to sell oil in Euros.

What? Jesus, reading the deranged babblings of a failed janitor on things like international relations is really fun in a "I wish I was high on mushrooms" kind of way.

It secured the ground for the oil pipeline, and it restored the opium trade.

Ah yes, the oil pipline. Oh, and I forget about Brian's LaRouchite beliefs about the drug trade. You never disappoint, petgoat. Your insane babblings never fail to be high comedy.

I changed my mind: don't seek professional help. I'd love to read your insanity for the next 20 years. Just please get some new material to go along with the old. Can you start talking about Obama love child of Malcolm X and Angela Davis, or something? Incorporating some far-right crackpot beliefs would make you a more well-rounded lunatic.

 
At 22 December, 2010 11:49, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

"The idea of using the attacks, blamed on Osama bin Laden, as a pretext to invade Afghanistan"

Again Brian, you have no evidence to support this. OBL admitted to everyone on the planet that he wanted to be held responsible for the attacks.

But then again, you'd welcome another terrorist attack any time on any given day. Because you don't value human life, or the lives of your countrymen.

 
At 22 December, 2010 16:32, Blogger Triterope said...

Sure, especially when you consider that the "engineers" in Richard Gage's group could all be described as incurious, cowardly, and dumb.

You forgot "and not engineers."

 
At 22 December, 2010 21:53, Blogger snug.bug said...

WAQ, I guess you missed it when Noam Chomsky pointed out that when the US invaded Afghanistan, they provided no evidence that al Qaeda had done 9/11--because they didn't have any.

April 19, 2002, FBI Director Mueller said "In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot."

I've seen no evidence that the FBI ever found Osama's alleged confessions convincing.

 
At 23 December, 2010 07:14, Blogger Ian G. said...

WAQ, I guess you missed it when Noam Chomsky pointed out that when the US invaded Afghanistan, they provided no evidence that al Qaeda had done 9/11--because they didn't have any.

False.

April 19, 2002, FBI Director Mueller said "In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot."

Nobody cares.

I've seen no evidence that the FBI ever found Osama's alleged confessions convincing.

Brian, when we want the opinion of a deranged liar, sex stalker, and unemployed janitor on matters of national security, we'll ask for it.

 
At 23 December, 2010 10:33, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

WAQ, I guess you missed it when Noam Chomsky pointed out that when the US invaded Afghanistan, they provided no evidence that al Qaeda had done 9/11--because they didn't have any.

Brian, OBL admitted that he's the one that's responsible to the whole world when he released his video.

I've seen no evidence that the FBI ever found Osama's alleged confessions convincing.

You're a liar & a lazy dumbass Brian.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.html

 
At 23 December, 2010 10:40, Blogger snug.bug said...

WAQ, you're incompetent. Your pbs cite says nothing about the FBI.

Also I guess you missed the phrase "there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made".

Apparently the FBI was not too impressed by the videos. Bin Laden has still not been indicted for 9/11, right?

 
At 23 December, 2010 10:57, Blogger Ian G. said...

WAQ, you're incompetent. Your pbs cite says nothing about the FBI.

Nobody cares, petgoat.

Also I guess you missed the phrase "there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made".

Nobody cares, petgoat.

Apparently the FBI was not too impressed by the videos. Bin Laden has still not been indicted for 9/11, right?

Yes, they didn't indict him in order to ensure that failed janitors with no life would pick up on it and realize that 9/11 was an inside job.

Seek professional help, petgoat.

 
At 23 December, 2010 11:13, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

WAQ, you're incompetent. Your pbs cite says nothing about the FBI.

Did your mother ever told you to read or did she mess up your reading skills at an early age Brian? BTW: It doesn't matter if it's the FBI or not, the thingthat matters is that OBL admitted that he planned & perped 9/11. Nothing in your delusional mind can change that fact. So fuck off!

Also I guess you missed the phrase "there was no way to authenticate the tape or say when it was made".

But later on they did, but that's another source for another day.

Apparently the FBI was not too impressed by the videos. Bin Laden has still not been indicted for 9/11, right?

OBL admitted that he planned & perped 9/11. And if I were you I'd stop talking about the FBI, your actions are very suspicious Brian. I bet you'd go ape shit if I submitted your name to the FBI as a National Security Threat.

BTW Brian: Did you watch about Homegrown Terrorists last night? I did, & I think you're becoming a threat.

 
At 23 December, 2010 11:22, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

Next thing we know Brian's going to become another Timothy McVeigh.

 
At 23 December, 2010 11:27, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

Osama Bin Laden dicussing the 9/11 Attacks after the events:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnwDr6BwF2Q

And what's that about OBL not being held responsible Brian?

Wanna lie again like a good little Truther?

 
At 23 December, 2010 12:43, Blogger snug.bug said...

When was Osama held responisble, WAQo? When was he indicted? Why was he allowed to walk out of Tora Bora when supposedly we invaded Afghanistan to get him?

What makes you believe the translation of that video?

 
At 23 December, 2010 12:48, Blogger Ian G. said...

When was Osama held responisble, WAQo? When was he indicted? Why was he allowed to walk out of Tora Bora when supposedly we invaded Afghanistan to get him?

Brian, can you try to ask less insane questions next time? Thanks buddy.

 
At 23 December, 2010 13:07, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

When was Osama held responisble, WAQo? When was he indicted? Why was he allowed to walk out of Tora Bora when supposedly we invaded Afghanistan to get him?

When he made his confessional tape. He was found guilty on his own terms. Because he ran like a little bitch to the mountains of Pakistan in fear of his life. He admitted that he loves death, so I've got 2 questions for you Brian:

If Bin Laden loves death, why didn't he just stay in Afghanistan & face his death?

Why did he run away from his death?

What makes you believe the translation of that video.

Someones actually paid to translate material. Of course, you're just a janitor who only knows how to mop up everyones messes, you wouldn't know anything anyways.

 
At 23 December, 2010 23:56, Blogger snug.bug said...

Wow, you guys are really wacked.

 
At 24 December, 2010 09:46, Blogger WhyAskQuestions said...

Wow, you guys are really wacked.

You'd know about getting whacked, wouldn't ya Brian?

 

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