Ducking the Question of the Passengers
Notice the artful dodging by Fetzer in this segment of the Colmes show. It's clear that Fetzer wants to talk about anything but the passengers and so he continually tries to steer the argument towards other topics (begins at about 8:55):
Colmes: But we know there were actual passengers on those planes who died.
Fetzer: Alan, what do you know about it? You weren’t there, you have no idea about those planes.
Colmes: Are you saying there were not passengers on those planes?
Fetzer: None of those hijackers were named on any passenger manifest. None of them was the subject of any autopsy. Five, six or seven have turned up alive and well, living in the Middle East.
Colmes: Now you’re talking about the hijackers, but the passengers there were actual passengers on those planes, right?
Fetzer: Well, there were passengers somewhere, but whether there were actual passengers on the planes as they were impacting the building is an interesting question. Everything was pulverized, Alan. All the concrete on the office floors was pulverized, all the office furniture was pulverized,
Colmes: No, but there were passenger records of people on those flights.
Fetzer: And they don’t include any hijackers, Alan.
Colmes: But they were real airplanes with real passengers on them.
Fetzer: Yeah there were real airplanes, but let me tell you something, if you look at the NTSB’s raw data, for these aircraft, which I observed on a spreadsheet this weekend, Dylan Avery who made Loose Change showed me a spreadsheet. You go for those four planes and you cross on the data and it’s all blank—it’s all blank Alan. Now, the NTSB had a formal obligation to investigate those crashes and it hasn’t done so. Why do you think it hasn’t done so, Alan?
Colmes: I don’t know the answer to that question, but what I’m trying to—my job is to give the questions, you’re going to answer them—but my point is that there were civilians, Americans who were on those flights, right?
Fetzer: Well, there were some, but the whole business about how many were paid and that whole sort of thing or compensation—
Colmes: What do you mean, paid?
Fetzer: Alan it’s very spotty.
Later, they get back into it:
Colmes: Are you saying that the other people on all the other planes—
Fetzer: No, no, I’m not saying that. Obviously there were bodies around; there don’t seem to be enough bodies to make up what was a full complement. You know, each of those planes, Alan, was curiously about one quarter full—you actually could have put all those people together on any one of those airliners.
I suspect that last claim is untrue as well.
Now, is that nutty or what? There were bodies around but not enough of them, so maybe they put all of the passengers on one of the planes? Wouldn't there then be even fewer bodies?
As for his claim that "none of those hijackers were named on any passenger manifest", one of the JREFers pointed us to this.
Listening to Fetzer, I get the feeling that I'm tuning in the Phil Hendrie show. Hendrie's schtick is that he disguises his voice and pretends to be someone with a wacky opinion on something. He then interviews himself, switching voices back and forth. It's mildly entertaining for about 10 minutes, but of course it's so over the top that you have to marvel when some of the callers to the show don't seem to understand that it's all a gag.
posted by Pat @ 1:13 PM
31 comments
31 Comments:
Fetzer: None of those hijackers were named on any passenger manifest. None of them was the subject of any autopsy. Five, six or seven have turned up alive and well, living in the Middle East.
This part cracked me up. OK professor, was it 5... 6... or 7?
Fetzer seems to be living in late 2001.
Hey, our dental hygenist.
I did an entire post on the manifests earlier.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/those-passenger-lists.html
The 9/11 commission report also shows they got the manifests, even mentioning the seat numbers of the hijackers. Of course CTs automatically discount the findings of the commission, while simultaneous saying they should have investigated more.
I never did get that logic.
This info taken from:
here
These are the only people whose names appear on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:
Flight 11: 92 people on board
Judy Larocque
Laurie Neira
Candace Lee Williams
=======================================
Flight 77: 64 people on board
William Caswell
Eddie Dillard
Ian Gray
John Sammartino
Leonard Taylor
=======================================
Flight 175: 65 people on board
Michael C. Tarrou
Gloria Debarrera
Timothy Ward
=======================================
Flight 93: 45 'people' on board
Of these 45 people, none are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:
No one
========================================
But there's more - I just re-ran all the names through the SSDI and SSA
Judy Larocque -- Nobody by this name in the SSDI
Laurie Neira -- 08 Dec 1952 11 Sep 2001 (FO) SSN 25-42-7446 Massachusetts
Candace Lee Williams -- Nobody by this name in the SSDI
William Caswell
There are 74 William Caswell in the SSDI. None died Sept 11 2001. 1 died in May 2001, thats the closest.
Eddie Dillard -- There are 11 Eddie Dillards in the SSDI. None died in this century.
Ian Gray -- IAN J GRAY 01 Sep 1946 11 Sep 2001 (V) (FO) (none specified) ssn - 338-48-2075 State issued Illinois . The (V), interestingly enough, means it was verified.
John Sammartino -- Nobody by this name in the SSDI
Leonard Taylor -- 34 Leonard Taylors. None Died Sept 11 2001
Michael C. Tarrou -- Nobody by this name in the SSDI
Gloria Debarrera -- Nobody by this name in the SSDI
Timothy Ward -- 52 Timothy Wards. None died in 2001.
Yeah BG, none of these people existed. They were all done in CGI. Ignore all those grieving widows on Larry King Live.
and what happened to them really only applies to a few, very few theories, and not to the most likely ones at that. this is really just one of the favorite talking points of the believer's of the "official" theory.
That's one of the dumber things said on this blog. "Most likely" indicates, guess what, what MOST LIKELY happened. As in what has the most evidence and what makes the most sense. We're not believers, as I've said before, as belief connotes faith.
BG, my grandmother, who died about 10 years ago, isn't on the SSDI either. Was she a part of some preliminary conspiracy to cover up deaths?
Or is it possible that you didn't look into the possible reasons why people wouldn't show up on that database?
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apathoid,
I'm not jumping to any conclusion.
Joan,
I see why you use the Catholics and virgin birth example.
However, if you are an atheist like me, and believe that Christianity is based on untruth, then the idea of pointing out the virgin birth miracle is a reasonable debating point.
Dale Earnhardt is also not listed in the SSDI. Ergo, he did not die and the so-called "crash" at Daytona was a coverup for his shameful conversion to open-wheel racing, something which NASCAR fans would never forgive if they knew. He is currently working his way up the F1 rankings under an assumed name after extensive plastic surgery.
Omygosh! Ray Walston is not in the SSDI! He's obviously returned to Mars.
Default.xbe's,
Honest question. I looked at the manifest pics. It appeared that the manifest pictured were produced on 9/30/2001. Do you know if that true? If not do you claim these are originals producted on 9/11?
Those are interesting Default, where did you get them?
I see why you use the Catholics and virgin birth example.
Believing something that doesn't make sense on blind faith?
Well, sounds just like every conspiracy theorist.
How you're an atheist and still believe in fantasies is beyond me.
Come on, guys.
I'm not saying they are fakes!
I hadn't seen them before: collecting info.
Don't ya think it would have been nice for the 9/11 Commission to collect and publish these?
With respect to Flight 175, the 911myths website identifies oddities.
If one looks into Marianne MacFarlane, which I did about a year ago, I submit to you, that the evidence that seems to point to lies about:
1) her planning to be on this flight
2) her planning to go to Las Vegas (by herself, but meeting up with friends after getting there.)
I challenge anyone to find any record of who she was planning to meet in Vegas. I challenge you to find anyone saying that they were planning to meet her in Vegas.
Don't ya think it would have been nice for the 9/11 Commission to collect and publish these?
What difference does it make? The 9/11 commission already reported the hijackers were on the passenger manifests, and you said they were lying. Why would you suddenly believe them just because they showed you a computer printout?
If you can crash a cruise missile into the Pentagon, and get half of DC to say it was a jetliner, you can add 19 names to a flight manifest.
James,
James,
I did Not say that the 9/11 Commission lied about the "hijackers" being on the manifests.
I'm not saying real planes with real passenger didn't take off. I'm saying the commercial jetlines identified didn't crash at any of the four locations that they are said to crash.
apathoid,
Here's the rub. On the moring of 9/11, MacFarlane was reported to have performed her gate-agent duties (on the clock I presume), before boarding the flight as a passenger.
Tell me how often American Airlines has an employee work a shift and actually perform duties at the gate where they depart. My speculation is that this would never happen.
"And give me a source that she was working the gate/flight that she departed from..."
The link below describes Sanchez and MacFarlane helping.
What kind of organization (especially unionized) allows off-duty employees to perform official duties?
http://www.iamawlodge1426.org/news5a.htm
I did Not say that the 9/11 Commission lied about the "hijackers" being on the manifests.
Then why are you debating whether the hijackers are on the manifest? You either believe it or not, you can't have it both ways.
"I'm guessing, as a skeptic, you've got some pretty hard evidence that the 4 9/11 flights safely landed somewhere and that the passengers are still alive?"
I have zero evidence, and really not even a reliable rumor, that any passengers said to be deceased are in fact alive. This is not part of my claim of where the evidence leads, although the Shanksville / Cleveland airport narrative is troubling. Will provide links about this if you want.
In general, with respect to the above, I do wish the 9/11 Commission or other official agencies or Airlines would put forward an explanation about why so few of the people eligible for compensation from the Victim's Compensation Fund have been reported to have received compensation from the fund. I'm not saying this is a smoking gun for anything... I just think it begs skepticism.
There is a huge amount of evidence leading to the conclusion that the specificly named planes were not, videoed or found at the crash sites. When it comes to what evidence or logic points this direction, there is a huge amount of detail one needs to pay attention to. There are various researchers who are providing the evidence and explanation. If you are one of those who remained unmoved toward complete skepticism about the Pentagon, I think it's doubtful you'll have any interest in the WTC, and Shanksville, PA evidence.
Here's a starting point to understand the reason to doubt the specific flights hitting the WTC.
The Shanksville fakery seems on par with the Pentagon.
James,
You are misreading what I've said.
I understand there are many Govt. Story Skeptics, and CT's who have made various allegations.
If you had been like me, and had been watching this whole subject like a hawk since Dec. of 2001, you would know that getting official, documented details has been a major need for all of us to sort thru the truth versus the lies. After we finally got a 9/11 Commission, many of us, included me, thought the 9/11 Commission would serve that purpose.
As the Commission work progressed, it because more and more obvious that they had no interest in performing the investigation called for in order to give the World reasonable clarity. The report, evidently engineered by Zelikow, is a joke.
So, there are many reasons to want to know a lot more than what we have from any official source about the passenger manifests, as well as an enormous number of other issues.
apathoid,
How many gate agents does it take, for goodness sake. Did the others call in sick?
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CHF,
Looking at evidence that is convincing and forming an opinion (strong or weak) is the next stage any reasonable person does after skeptical inquiry.
It would be dopey not to be swayed... that's what the whole purpose of inquiry is for. Now that I'm swayed, I want the same evidence to be reviewed for official action if my conclusion can be verified and supported by legitimate adjudication.
"I still want your explanation of how the MiBs planted a 1200 lb Landing Gear Strut. Any ideas?"
I think you are talking about a picture taken inside the Pentagon in the areas of the "crash" that is said to be a landing gear strut.
Did anybody weight the strut. Did anybody examine the pictured items and make an official determination of what was, and what aircraft it came from.
And yes, it could have been planted on top of all that.
"bg, go here and then read. The only parent aircraft to which this p/n strut belongs is the 757-200. "
They, (whoever they are), certainly planned the deception pretty well, I'd say.
The SSDI is not reliable to do this kind of research.
we found this out when we first started researching the passengers.
The airlines never released a official passenger list.
the ones the media had gotten were ALL different !
Believe me, airlines know exactly their passenger lists immediately. To have them be so cautious in what they release, raises suspicions.
this is pretty interesting...
media published fake passenger lists for september 11
======
Another odd thing: No arab DNA found on the flights, e.g. flight 77
http://www.physics911.net/olmsted.htm
=====
i am NOT a loose change fan,
i think they may have had good intentions, but there are people who have much better credentials that you should read before getting into this,you should look at a lot of info.
I am a cel phone engineer (RF) i design cell systems.
the flight maps shopwed flight 93 at 35,000ft. theres no way a call can be made at that altitude on a cell phone. many calls were from airphones, but some were cell phones.
Cell phones September 11, and engineering perpective
This is NOT my test below, but its an interesting read....
"The Social Security Death Index (SSDI) (Social Security Death Index) is a privately-owned website that is not affiliated with Social Security. It boasts an accuracy rate of about 83%
9-11 Victims Compensation Fund
This is where our government opened up the Treasury and gave family members of those who lost their lives that day lots of money. In return, these families were basically told to shut up about anything else concerning 9-11. (Considering all the lies surrounding this horrific event, you can see why.)
At this point there is one thing we should never forget, and that is how powerful the notion of human greed is. Remember this concept as you read the number of victims whose family members sought compensation.
Flight 93: of the 45 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 6 are listed in the SSDI (13%)
Of these 45 people, none are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:
No one
Flight 175: of the 65 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 18 are listed in the SSDI (28%)
Of these 65 people, only three are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:
Flight 77: of the 64 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 14 are listed in the SSDI (22%)
Of these 64 people, only five on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:
Flight 11: of the 92 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 20 are listed in the SSDI (22%)
Of these 20 people, only three are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=750
http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/911passengerlist.html
From Vic and Lisa thorn.
Which brings me to Ellen Mariani: she’s the woman who lost her husband Louis on Flight 175 that crashed into the South Tower on 9-11. With the help of a lawyer named Phil Berg, she filed a lawsuit against President Bush and company under the RICO act. Also, she refused to take the hush money that was offered to her under the 9-11 Victims Compensation fund.
In addition, I had just discovered Black Op Radio earlier in the year and found an interesting show in their archives (# 156) on which Ellen and Mr. Berg appeared as guests. This may be the single biggest point concerning 9-11, and hopefully the last nail in the coffin of our government's lies. During this broadcast, Mrs. Mariani
said that she was the
only relative of all the passengers that died on Flight 175 that crashed into the South Tower.
Her lawyer, Phil Berg, repeated this statement.
I listened to this show over and over again and couldn't believe what she had just said. Everything came together at this point. That’s when it dawned on me that not only had our government lied about the physics of 9-11; they may very well have taken it one step farther by faking the number of people that died that day. I believed what she and Mr. Berg had just said. Nothing about 9-11 made any sense. Why should it start now?
Not knowing then what I know now, Ellen and Phil believed that for some reason the government was holding back the names of the people that had died on Flight 175.
She had tried to get in touch with the relatives of other family members, but to no avail.
You see, she and her lawyer believed, just like most other people believe, that four jets had been hijacked by Arab terrorists and crashed into buildings and into the ground at Shanksville. I, on the other hand, had already swept those lies aside.
Hijackers Alive And Well
Flight 93
http://911review.org/_webimages/red_bandanna_hijacker2.jpg
This scarf was said to be worn by hijackers. Amazing condition for being in a plane crash.
NOTE: Body of hijacker missing
http://911review.org/_webimages/93_crater.jpg
Flight 93 crater supposedly made by a plane.
NOTE: Absence of plane.
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