Monday, May 15, 2006

Three Easily Understood Lies In Loose Change

This listing isn't intended to be all of the lies in Loose Change, or even of the most ridiculous lies, or the most disgusting and outrageous. It's the easiest to understand lies, in one case a lie that can be refuted by looking at the film itself.

1. The cable spools. As I reported here, Dylan Avery asks:



Why are the cable spools in front of the hole completely untouched?


(Click on that picture 1-2 times.)

I don't think you need to be an accident investigator to see that those cable spools are not completely untouched.

2. Marvin Bush. Marvin comes in for his moment of fame at 53:33:

You're probably asking, if there were bombs in the building, how would they get in there without anyone noticing?

Ben Fountain, a financial analyst who worked in the World Trade Center, told People Magazine that in the weeks before 9-11, there were a number of unannounced and unusual drills where sections of both the Twin Towers and building 7 were evacuated for 'security reasons'.

Daria Coard, a guard in the North Tower, told Newsday that security detail was working 12 hour shifts for two weeks before 9-11,

But on Thursday the 6th, bomb sniffing dogs were abruptly removed from the building.

So who authorized all this?

President Bush's brother, Marvin, was Board of Directors at Securacom from 1993 until fiscal year 2000.


Now, you might quibble that they don't actually lie in here. I don't buy it. They ask the question who authorized this, and then follow with a factual statement that doesn't answer the question, and they do this in a deliberate attempt to mislead. First, Marvin Bush had nothing to do with the day-to-day operations of security at the World Trade Center. Second, he left his position as a board member of the company that did provide security in June 2000, more than 14 months before the terrorist attacks.

And third, the producers at Loose Change lie routinely about Marvin Bush anyway. Check out the video of the trip they took to Ground Zero on September 11, 2005. Dylan Avery is talking to a 9-11 widow, and says (22:22)

Do you know who ran security at the World Trade Center? Marvin Bush.

#3. Osama Don't Wear No Bling. At 1:13:00, Avery notes that a video in which Osama admits responsibility for the 9-11 attacks has him wearing a gold ring, which is forbidden by the Koran and thus which Osama doesn't wear. Except that they can't really know the ring and the watch are gold, and he's worn that exact jewelry before:







My point with this post is to show you that Loose Change lies, and lies routinely. It lies deliberately. It lies when it's showing you the truth. The Loosers talk about us being sheeple, they're ignoring the evidence of their own eyes!

165 Comments:

At 15 May, 2006 08:48, Blogger nesNYC said...

Your last picture of Osama show's he's not an Islamic fundamentalist but a member of "Al-CIA-duh" as has been alleged. Many in the Islamic world think he's really back home in, America! LOL. But it's pretty much common knowledge that Osama (Tim Osman) really worked for American intelligence when he was alive. No matter what Loose Change says about the video being fake, it's a fact, Osama worked for the US as recently as Bosnia and was cared for in his last days and even visited by CIA leaders. He is a manufactured terrorist and the eternal enemy that can be likened to Emanuel Goldstein of 1984.

As for Marvin, where's your source he wasn't head of security up until 9/11? Don't you know he was replaced by John O'Neil on 9/11? Seems you lie more than you accuse Loose Change of doing.

 
At 15 May, 2006 08:56, Blogger nesNYC said...

BTW, the source for Marvin being part of Securacom comes from his Mother:

some facts for your consideration:

-Marvin Bush, brother of president Bush, was a director of the Sterling, Virginia company Securacom, also known as Stratesec. Marvin Bush and Securacom/Stratesec were in charge of security at the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport, and United Airlines during a two year contract which was set to end on September 10th, 2001. Only a day before the 9/11 attacks. (This information can be found in "Barbara Bush's Memoirs")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Bush

-five days before september 11th, bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the buildings.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-nyaler12
2362178sep12,0,1255660.story

 
At 15 May, 2006 08:57, Blogger Conspiracy Smasher said...

"As for Marvin, where's your source he wasn't head of security up until 9/11?"

You dullards make the accusations, so you need to provide the proof. Take your conspiradroid dome out of your backside and start thinking...

 
At 15 May, 2006 09:01, Blogger nesNYC said...

The spools:

Look at your own photo you posted. 4 of the 5 spools show are standing upright. Are we to believe a plane with that mass traveling at 500 MPH, creating air pressures exceeding that or most tornados left 4 of those spools standing upright? Even the one closest to the building is knocked AWAY from the building, how do you figure?

So Loose Change's assertion that the spools were "untouched" is basically accurate and only a lie if you believe in fairy tales.

 
At 15 May, 2006 09:11, Blogger nesNYC said...

You dullards make the accusations, so you need to provide the proof. Take your conspiradroid dome out of your backside and start thinking...

Even you Brown Shirts don't deny that Marvin was head of Securacom. In fact, he was in NYC on 9/11 as his Mother tells us in 'Reflections.'

 
At 15 May, 2006 16:02, Blogger Michael in MI said...

This is just a general comment about Loose Change's general premise of the government conspiracy to carry out the 9-11 attacks.

Granting their premise that the government was behind it, that would mean that the Clinton Administration was behind the original planning of 9-11 and then passed on all that info to the Bush Administration. Since we know that the terrorists had been in the USA training for 9-11 in the late 1990s (during the Clinton Administration).

Does Loose Change place blame on both the Clinton and Bush Administrations or simply the Bush Administration?

Or is their overall theory that the Clinton Administration was completely clueless to terrorist activity in the USA during his Administration, then when President Bush came into office in January of 2001, he found out about the planning of 9/11, contacted the terrorists to get in on the plan and then worked with them on the conspiracy for the next 8 months?

I haven't watched the entire 2 films, because I can't stomach all the BS, but I wanted to put these questions out there.

 
At 15 May, 2006 20:49, Blogger Pat said...

Michael, the film isn't clear about this but I strongly suspect that the producers think the hijackers didn't exist; that the planes were diverted to Air Force bases and replaced with drones. It's wack, but that appears to be the underlying assumption.

 
At 20 May, 2006 18:39, Blogger Off the Grid said...

Friends! I come from four days into the future and guess what? People are still arguing over petty little points in not only Loose Change, but The Da Vinci Code as well!

A ring on Osama's finger? That's the most easily understood lie from the film?

By the way, Roger Ebert referred me to this sight. How freaky is that?

 
At 22 May, 2006 10:33, Blogger benedictrove said...

Your top 2 photos of bin laden , his head is obviously superimposed on another body. The hands are not his skin color and well, it is just obvious, in one his neck is like a foot long. In the questionable video, the face of bin laden is of someone else, and that is also obvious, but low and behold, yo don't show that one.

 
At 22 May, 2006 10:38, Blogger benedictrove said...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html
scroll down to see the "alleged" bin laden. you can easily see it is not him. Why don't you use THESE pictures, you Hitler Jugend types are such liars, you never investigate what you are "debunking"

 
At 22 May, 2006 14:57, Blogger srice555 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 22 May, 2006 14:57, Blogger srice555 said...

Pat you say these are "very easily refuted lies", yet your points aren't very convincing.

First, you post one photo of the spools, yep they're damaged all right! Therefore the government did not allow the event to happen on 9/11 to wage war on the world for OIL. Silly me, I mean Operation Iraqi Liberation.

Second, the fact that Marvin Bush was on the board of the company that provided security for the WTC, United, and the airports, is very intresting indeed. While it doesn't connect him with the security failures, stoppage of bomb stiffing dogs, and a complete power outage on the weekend before from the 30th floor up, doesn't mean he was involed. It does mean he had connections inside the company. See, there is one thing about those in power you don't understand. Those who are in power are there becuase of the friends, or the connections, they have. And it's through the connections evil deeds are done and the evil masterminds hands are washed. Are too simple to think this is not how the world works? It's like money laundry, expect for evil deeds.

Third, post the photo from the video in question next to the one you have posted and then we'll see who the lier is.

Also, let's not loose track of what is really important here: Did the US government allow 9/11 to be used a "new pearl harbor" to allow for the massive change is the structure of the milarty and the policy of the USA?

 
At 23 May, 2006 18:57, Blogger Pat said...

SR, you acknowledge the spools are damaged, ergo you acknowledge that Loose Change lied about them being "untouched". I'm not looking to debunk the whole ridiculous conspiracy here, that's the point of the blog as a whole. I'm just saying that here's a place where they flat out lie about what's right in front of you; does it show much respect for your intelligence that they think they can get away with that?

 
At 24 May, 2006 17:06, Blogger srice555 said...

Pat, while I don't believe the government story at all, I think the movie "Loose Change" brings out many loose ends from the events of 9/11.

You must understand that the movie wasn't a documentary like a sinking of a ship or a Civil War battle. Therefore, you're going to find holes because it presents many ideas without picking a single "this is how it happened" story.

I know they mislead somethings, which is why I'm reading your blog, but I know that is the nature of bringing forth many ideas in a single format. No single movie could possiablely be 100% correct because there are so many questions, so many unexplained events, too many connections, and to many "by chance" events happened that day.

I don't know what exactly happened that day, but I know one thing. The NeoCons said "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

They got their "New Pearl Harbor" on 9/11. That to me spells out the motive behind 9/11 a lot better then "terroist hate freedom" crap the media made me believe.

You are a smart guy and a free thinker, what do you believe?

Also, what do you know about the Reichstag Fire? It was a terrisot event done by the Nazi, blamed on the communists, which allowed Hitler to gain power needed to become dictator and thus lead to the second World War. Without slinging insults, is it possiable that 9/11 was our Reichstang Fire that will lead us into the third world war?

If it is, where does that place you?

 
At 25 May, 2006 12:17, Blogger Mat Ripley said...

This Blog is a Joke!

I watched Loose Change a few days ago and have been looking for counter evidence because I was compelled in scary ways.

And I end up here… and its just all clutching at straws. Nit picking. Single source citing. Speculation.

Please!!!

Give me some hard evidence that refutes Loose Change so that I can get back to being a happy human living in what I thought was a free world.

Mat

 
At 25 May, 2006 21:22, Blogger david said...

Mat, you won't find it here. In regard to the spools, I believe that was referenced in the movie to refute the claim that the plane skidded into the buiding after hitting the Pentagon lawn. A valid point. The most compelling evidence I saw in the movie was that the engines don't seem to be anywhere in sight. Has anyone de-bunked that?

 
At 02 June, 2006 09:32, Blogger Andrew said...

After watching the video and reading a few other websites its seems to me that it is clear that a plane surley as was discribed by the us government never in fact hit the pentagon building. There is very little hard evidence to suggest that the plnce hit the bulding and if so why was no more video footage released?? There seems to be far more questions than answers

 
At 06 June, 2006 13:50, Blogger ~ FluxRostrum said...

I know You are But What am I?

 
At 10 June, 2006 12:45, Blogger Paradigm Buster said...

a free world? it may be a free country, but its definitely not a free world.

anyways, there are a lot of intelligence holes in the film, and you would expect that because that's the entire complaint of the film. There is however a lot of naivity. The entire film was designed to goad the government into releasing information. in that, i hope they succeed but i think the first thing they'll have to do is abandon what they are trying to conclude. first, they talk about innocence until proven guilty and then they try to pin it on "the government" without providing any real proof.

The only thing they do prove is their ignorance of one Hamid Reza Zakeri.

 
At 21 June, 2006 13:45, Blogger tommy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 21 June, 2006 13:50, Blogger tommy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 28 June, 2006 23:03, Blogger omnione said...

I think it would be beneficial if you all read some Toulmin before you determine how valid these claims are...post hoc anyone? Ad ignorantium? Ad hominem? Petitio Principii? I'm sure we all know our fallacies and how to identify them when we need to, I'd hope.

The Right & The Left:
Poster children for argument based on fallacy.

 
At 29 June, 2006 17:39, Blogger niagara guy said...

One indisputable fact: 35 minutes after the SECOND plane hit the WTC, "some kind of aircraft" was able to reach and strike the Pentagon. How on EARTH is that possible if it wasn't an inside job?

 
At 29 June, 2006 17:41, Blogger niagara guy said...

One indisputable fact: 35 minutes after the SECOND plane hit the WTC, "some kind of aircraft" was able to reach and strike the Pentagon, the most heavily defended building on earth. How is that possible if it wasn't an inside job?

 
At 30 June, 2006 15:06, Blogger jackhanyes said...

Don't ask questions like that! What do you think this is? Some sort of place where people do thinking? HELL NO BUDDY!!

 
At 10 July, 2006 02:04, Blogger jersigirl said...

Hi!! Loose Change is a great documentary which is basically pointing out all of the information some of you "government can do no wrong" people cannot see for yourselves because your being brainwashed and walking through the event with a closed mind and closed eyes. You have been MISLED. Listen to yourselves. The evidence is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU IF YOU CARE TO LOOK. Our government hates us all and want millions more americans to die in order to fill their wallets. Loose Change did nothing but show you things that were already out in the open. You CAN'T dispute facts, things that people openly said on their own accord, ie WITNESSES, PLUS documents, publications, ect. 9-11 was a self inflicted wound whether your blind asses can see it or not. There are many OTHER documentaries out there, such as IN PLANE SITE which point out more facts. For Example: Bush said that he saw THE FIRST PLANE HIT LIVE ON A TELEVISION AT THE SCHOOL HE WAS ATTENDING THAT MORNING. HOW?!? There was NO FOOTAGE, NO NEWS COVERAGE, ECT. BECAUSE THIS WAS A "SURPRISE ATTACK."

People, your government is against you. Accept it and do something about it. Fight back with KNOWLEDGE. Education is the only way to fight back and get the real "Evil" behind 9-11.

=]

 
At 10 July, 2006 11:34, Blogger poopstraw said...

your "debunking of lies" hones in on three very insignificant QUESTIONS dylan avery poses.. and overlooks the biggest lies of all: those the government and media has told us. all dylan avery is doing is asking questions and asking us as citizens to think about the facts, or lack thereof, that have been presented to us by the american news media. instead of nitpicking a few obscure points, maybe you should focus your energy on looking objectively and logically at the evidence. is it beyond a reasonable doubt? should we believe everything that is force fed to us by the television and repeated images carefully spun to make us all fall in line? dont forget.. bush is a man who thinks evolution is a theory and global warming is a myth. who do you want deciding what you believe?

 
At 10 July, 2006 22:43, Blogger Pat said...

Is it a question to say that the cable spools are untouched? No, that's a statement, and it's a lie--a ridiculous lie. You can argue as to whether it matters, but it's part of a pattern with LC to tell us lies about things that are obvious.

On the single-source citing, gimme a break. I cite the Washington Post and the New York Times, Dylan cites America Free Press. Your call as to which is more reliable.

 
At 13 July, 2006 23:37, Blogger JP said...

This has to be thee biggest waste of space website to date, anyone with only a few functioning brain cells can piece together the 911 BS. Mineta testifying on video that Cheney sat in wait in his underground shelter for the Pentagon hit is a HUGE smoking gun. Building 7 falling at freefall speed, owner Larry Silverstein admitting to "pulling" it, NORAD being completely useless and bungling? A Cessna has fighters on it in minutes flying in restricted airspace yet huge planes with responders off get no attention? Get real here. Only 3 buildings in history to ever fall from small contained fires happened on 911 ONLY? Not to mention the lame video re-released of what looks to be the sloped nose of a Sky Warrior about to hit the Pentagon followed by what appears to be a missile trail. Oh lets not forget the 16 ft hole through 3 rings and no plane wreckage. And that is just for starters. Research conspiratorial history and learn a few things. Try concentrating on something of importance, such as the towers falling defy the laws of physics compared to what the media has fed us. Study up. Learn to use common sense and wake up already. PS - google "who owns the media" and learn what corporations decide what airs on what stations. Sheesh. Comatose Americans continue to contribute to this once great nation's demise.

 
At 15 July, 2006 21:21, Blogger neverassume said...

it is known among "conspiracy theorists" that many world leaders in power, as well as out of power, believe that the world would be a better place or perhaps just more easily managed if 70-75% of the worlds population was irradicated. Think to yourself, imagine if this was a game, because to many of the powers that be it is. If you had a population writhing with unrest, crying for more than is possible to give, and unable to understand how global issues are truely created and resolved, what would you do. if survival was your goal, and you had no other option, why wouldn't you want to make it easier for yourself. Afterall, whatis a couple thousand lives but for a number on a sheet.
this is what scares me, that even a rational human being put under enough pressure will begin to see numbers, and statistics rather than humans and bloodshed. Take a good look at elementary school history books, then high school, notice that raping and pilaging is mentioned. Now ask yourself: "What else have they kept from us?"

 
At 16 July, 2006 15:33, Blogger whutsername said...

I love how you have chosen to focus on a few minor details, while completely ignoring the bigger issue! You should run for office.

As far as Bin Ladin wearing gold..who gives a fuck, that is not Bin Ladin confessing to the attacks! Look at the shape of his head, his nose, are you blind?

And will you please shut up about the fucking spools? Why dont you show us how wrong Loose Change is by pointing out the wreckage of the Boeing 747 outside the Penatagon? Oh.. wait..you dont see it either?

I would like to hear an argument against Loose Change that can stand up to random citizens' posts. (Which yours has not, incase you haven't noticed)
Untill then, shut the fuck up!

 
At 16 July, 2006 15:35, Blogger whutsername said...

I love how you have chosen to focus on a few minor details, while completely ignoring the bigger issue! You should run for office.

As far as Bin Ladin wearing gold..who gives a fuck, that is not Bin Ladin confessing to the attacks! Look at the shape of his head, his nose, are you blind?

And will you please shut up about the fucking spools? Why dont you show us how wrong Loose Change is by pointing out the wreckage of the Boeing 747 outside the Penatagon? Oh.. wait..you dont see it either?

I would like to hear an argument against Loose Change that can stand up to random citizens' posts. (Which yours has not, incase you haven't noticed)
Untill then, shut the fuck up!

 
At 19 July, 2006 18:25, Blogger Splash Two said...

Well, I'm just a common citizen and here're just a few of my problems with Loose Change:

The interviews they did and sources they sited tended to be with & from people who have no expertise in the field they are being asked about. Yeah they talked to a pilot about how the plane would react to certain stresses in flight but it was A pilot; not dozens of pilots. They continually site a single source or witness and ignore those that disagree.

They continually set up straw man arguments.

They have no explanation whatsoever for what happened to the people on the airplanes that "supposedly crashed". Are they all in hiding and complicit in this conspiracy?

They continually reference the reporting done on 9/11 as if people were stating facts. Look no one knew what the hell was going on, there was TONS of speculation, you can't then show video of that and think it supports your argument. That's idiotic!

They show people saying "explosion" over and over again as if all explosions come from bombs. Well golly, I watched the plane fly into the building and there was a big explosion - must have actually been a bomb! And there's no way that a plane, fully laden with fuel, flying into a building would ever cause secondary, or tertiary explosions!

Plus, the towers came down from the floors where the planes hit. So were their explosives planted on those floors? If so what are the odds that the planes themselves wouldn't have ignited the charges when they hit?

Come on people; you're just pathetic on this.

 
At 20 July, 2006 16:56, Blogger bluecollarscholar said...

Let's stay on subject:
either three skyscrapers on the same day and in the same area can collapse into their own footprints due to an airplane crash or they can't.

You can't have it both ways.

 
At 20 July, 2006 18:41, Blogger InNYCWith Right2Ask said...

Ok... I watched this all go down that day from my roof. Those of us from NY and DC have the right to ask these questions. It should not make us less patriotic to look internally for answers.Especially since those answers have not, as of yet, been provided. And since I have a healthy dose of those buildings in my lungs... I wanna know the truth.
If we concentrate only on one building, forgetting about the rest for a second.... what do we see? No plane hit 7 yet it fell at the speed of gravity from just a few small fires.... The only way that building comes down is thru demolition. In slowmotion you actually see the middle of the building bucle and fall in on itself before the outer structure starts to fall.
IF that building came down from any demo at all... you have to give a second nod to the rest of the questions posted. Is there a way to get thru all that traffic and debris to have a demo team (which there is none on FDNY or NYPD) bring down a building?(One that happens to hold several govt. agencies?) No. In order for that building to fall like it fell, it would need to be planned.
OR...if they CAN bring down a building in that short amount of time... why is it so hard to believe that explosives could not be placed in the towers in a short amount of time.... such as the power downs. And why does it take 2 weeks to demolish buildings with less congestive footprints.
As for where the buildings start to fall and explosives being detonated upon impact.... surely no one on this blog is an explosives expert. I'm not. Would shape charges detonate the same way? Are there not charges that explode inwards instead of blowing out. Was RDX used? That stuff slices thru steel like butter. Would a huge fireball and a plane slamming into the tower be enough to cover up any sound of explosions if they were using standard explosives?
Where is the impact for 7? If it's easy enough to explain away the towers collapse beginning from the weakened structure at the holes in the building.... then where are the holes for 7?
As for missing passengers.... if a "govt." has no problem slamming a plane into a building... hopefully killing 10's of thousands... do you think they would have a problem landing, whacking a plane full of people, and head on to crash that plane? Or what if it's not that plane at all?
AS with some of the others... I can't believe that this is ALL our govt. It's not. But it is people within our govt... and others around the world. That's for sure. It's not bush alone... or clinton alone... Republicans are easily blamed because they happen to be in office now...but it's definately both sides of the aisle. No one has said anything about the Cole or OK City. These things happened on Clinton's watch....as did WACO. See Waco: Rules of Engagement and then make a decision about whether the FBI or ATF always tells the truth.
There are tons of questions... no real answers... and we have people condemning us for asking for truth. Look at our history... Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Korea, Vietnam, worldwide terrorism on a massive scale. Policy over people for sure. If it makes good policy it does not matter who gets hurt. Hence... arming countries we now send our kids to fight against. Look deeper than the spools, people!!

 
At 21 July, 2006 15:28, Blogger Splash Two said...

When everything is a conspiracy...nothing is a conspiracy.

I even heard Professor Fetzer (I think that's his name) make the claim that Mohammed Atta is still alive.

Ok, if that's true why does he know and I don't? Wouldn't that be a huge triumph for you conspiracy types not to mention Arab nations?

Why isn't he on talk shows telling us how corrupt our government is?

I think conspiracy theorists are really just raging egomaniacs who think they have it all figured out. I at least have an open mind, they just know we're all wrong.

 
At 23 July, 2006 08:30, Blogger Jonathan said...

Where are the guilty consciences?

That there is more to the events of 9/11 that the government is willing to tell us, I have no doubt.

However, a scheme like that would have employed many, many people ... and no one had come forth yet with the truth or evidence or facts, etc? How long can someone go with the deaths of thousands on their conscience before they crack and HAVE to reveal all? Even money can't buy absolute silence absolutely.

By the way, someone did a good photoshop job on those pictures of Osama Bling Laden above.

 
At 26 July, 2006 21:26, Blogger Jamman said...

I have my own opinions on everything and i'm not saying one way or another because i'm still trying to decifer everything, but here's one quesiton i haven't seen asked or answered.....




why would the creators of Loose Change go through so much trouble to try to uncover something if there was absolutely no truth about it, as the creator of this Blog, has said?

 
At 27 July, 2006 11:42, Blogger SHUTEMDOWN said...

SHUT THIS PIECE OF SHIT WEBSITE DOWN YOU FUCKIN MORON!

This site, and everything it represents, is why our freedoms will be handed to the real criminals of 911 without much in the way of resistance. If you need to debunk small details concerning these issues, while ignoring the lies and omissions in the 911 Commission's Report, you are a robot. You are working with them. I INVITE you, although you probably won't bother, to come over to my blog so that you can answer a couple of real simple, real straight forward questions that Loose Change, 1000's of Intelligent Scientists, and A MAJORITY of the CITIZENS of this NATION are also asking, and have every right to ask. Do a statistical Survey of your own site, and tell me how many people think YOU are the idiot, not Conspiracy Theorists, whose only crime so far is to think for themselves.
SHUT SCREW911 DOWN NOW

 
At 27 July, 2006 20:03, Blogger Splash Two said...

Hey, I got an idea "shutmedown" how about you, using your very own brain power, answer my questions.

That would be great! But you can't, so you won't.

Idiot.

 
At 27 July, 2006 20:06, Blogger Splash Two said...

"why would the creators of Loose Change go through so much trouble to try to uncover something if there was absolutely no truth about it, as the creator of this Blog, has said?"

You ask this and yet it doesn't occur to you to ask why would your government go to all this trouble to kill it's own citizens and then be so sloppy as to let a bunch of dipshit idiots figure it out and then expose them - and not then kill every dipshit who opposed them to keep it quiet...

You're a fucking moron.

 
At 28 July, 2006 12:02, Blogger SHUTEMDOWN said...

"Ok, if that's true why does he know and I don't? Wouldn't that be a huge triumph for you conspiracy types not to mention Arab nations?

Why isn't he on talk shows telling us how corrupt our government is?"

You raise no points with your speculative rhetorical questions, like all other sheep in the herd. You want to watch Martial Law 911 by Alex Jones for insight into these issues before talking to CTs. By the way, being a CT is not a crime nor is it bad. Indeed, you were probably all about the grassy knoll and the Kennedy CT's. Now you call CT's a bunch of whack jobs. Think for yourself. Get mad at me, it makes noise, and more people hear the issues at hand. According to polls, and even a statistical revue of the responses on this crack-job site, YOU are the minority. Seriously, what is the real CT: That the Bush Regime used this as a precursor for advancement of the NWO and a police state in the US, or that 19 unexperienced foreigners successfully hijacked 4 commercial jet airliners with box cutters and managed to pull off orchestrated and well timed attacks at a 75% success rate - slipping past NORAD's World Renowned US Air Defense systems (if they didn't shoot down the plane in PA like "Let's Roll" suggests) 4 out of 4 times... Gee. Uh, call me a moron, but that sounds pretty much impossible. NORAD confronts off course planes 100's of times a year. And lets just ignore the laws of physics and say 3 enormous skyscrapers can fall at 100 Feet Per Second (they fell at freefall speed, making the pancake theory completely implausable and inpossible) due to weakened structures supposedly caused by low temperature fires. Forget the people standing in the hole of the towers where the plane crashed into it. Forget all of the obvious and just continue to graze in your field of dreams because you're probably with Billionaires for Bush, even though you don't even make 6 figures. Why not just let the CT's be, are you afraid that what they say is the truth might actually be the truth? You would rather be spoon fed shit on a shingle rather than walk over to the kitchen and prepare your own sandwich.

Go to my blog and answer some simple questions please, if you can, and stop acting so childish.
SHUT THIS LAME SITE DOWN NOW! ANSWER REAL QUESTIONS HERE

 
At 28 July, 2006 12:22, Blogger SHUTEMDOWN said...

"why would the creators of Loose Change go through so much trouble to try to uncover something if there was absolutely no truth about it, as the creator of this Blog, has said?"

“You ask this and yet it doesn't occur to you to ask why would your government go to all this trouble to kill it's own citizens and then be so sloppy as to let a bunch of dipshit idiots figure it out and then expose them - and not then kill every dipshit who opposed them to keep it quiet...”
Again, it appears though you have a lot of anger towards the Critical Thinkers, another popular acronym result of CT. To sum up the answer to your question in another acronym, let me just quote GHWB: NWO. What don't you understand about that? Do you think these Elite Billionaires care about US casualties? Kill it's own citizens? Dip shit idiots aren't among the Intelligent Community (not to be confused with Intelligence Organizations, who defy logic and physics with their explanations) of scholars, experts in their fields, and eye witnesses that are exposing this. Name one dipshit idiot involved in the 911 Truth movement – founded by the families of the victims of this horrific deception.
And your last statement is a real quick reaction one, isn't it? Think about that for a moment. If someone killed the creators of Loose Change, wouldn't that be the straw that broke the camels back? SHUT UP! You are the one who is the dipshit bud. Wake up and smell the treason. Quit hiding behind immature rebuttals and ignorance of FACTS. Moreover, stop being an antagonistic prodding robot, it will only get more people to realize that your side of the argument is the weak side.

Why did you hear so many news reporters near the towers talk about “Huge explosions that we all heard and felt” just before the towers came down? How did the lobbies get blown out when the planes hit dozens of floors above? A giant fireball that raced though air tight elevator shafts? Answer that and you get a cookie.

Go to my blog and answer some simple questions please, if you can, and stop acting so childish.
SHUT THIS LAME SITE DOWN NOW! ANSWER REAL QUESTIONS HERE

 
At 04 August, 2006 19:32, Blogger timoteo said...

nice that you are trying to defend your flag waving, bs patriotism antics. the cold hard facts, that you are so weakly trying to dispute still hold. i would say that there are more holes in your defence than there are in the movie. go try to unravel some more bs and then create another site admitting that you have no facts but are just another blind patriot.

 
At 04 August, 2006 19:32, Blogger timoteo said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 04 August, 2006 22:03, Blogger 77research.org said...

I have looked at this from a neutral perspective and I'm sorry, but this site hasn't argued its corner at all. In fact almost all of the questions and statements on this site and debunking911.com are flawed, previously answered or

The 'Screw Loose Change' video mainly shows emotional people trying to refute the 9/11 facts with personal feelings or name calling. Of course, everybody feels sadness for the tragic loss of life, but the hard facts in LC2E can't be erased because someone is in pain and upset by the exposure.

We'll only establish the truth with cold and critical analysis of the facts. You can't counter someone's expression of hard facts by calling them a nut, traitor, terrorist supporter etc.

Using personal attacks means you're either out of your depth or you're opinion is no longer valid. Using emotional tactics to silence the truth only serves to cheapen the honest debate.

Some people have tried to debunk the 9/11 truth claims, by picking out mostly minor side issues and ignoring the hard facts. But even then, the argument is weak. You can't claim the fake Osama is real by showing three frames from the same fake video. Claiming two previous sightings of the man wearing a gold ring doesn't count if both sightings were in the last 5 minutes on the same fake video.

Another debunk claim was on the deep booms of multiple explosives just prior to the towers freefall. Rivets popping free are the counter-claims.

This is interesting because hundreds heard a deep boon. Massive tremors were recorded, molten metal spilled out of the towers, squibs ejected out with force. Besides, there were so many rivets in the towers, any popping out would have set-off a domino effect & sounded like a machine gun

The claim that a Plane and aluminium have melted before is also false. Air France flight 358 didn't melt after being "Sparked only by friction..."

Air France flight 358 overshot the runway in bad weather, crashed & the remaining jet fuel caught fire.
The plane had old style high-pressure pure oxygen tanks. One for each person. The jet fuel cooked them and eventually, each one exploded in turn. This series of explosions ripped the roof open. It's impossible for Jet fuel to melt metal. That's why the wings are untouched and why the engines don't melt during flight.

I could go on forever.

You should try two things. Firstly, stop desperately clutching onto a hope that your government couldn't do this. Nobody likes what's going on, but the truth is the way to stop this.
Second, look at the 9/11 data and the bigger picture rather than each little item with a view to disprove it.

There will be some errors in some research papers or media productions, but that doesn't invalidate the message. It's like someone reading a Shakespeare original, seeing a spelling mistake or a missing comma and rejecting the whole play.

It's an outrage when the pain of 9/11 is used politically as a way to silence critics or justify something unpopular.

Thanks.

 
At 04 August, 2006 23:06, Blogger Pat said...

77 research, we use both logic and sarcasm. I see no hesitation on the other side to using the latter, although there is a notable lack of the former.

 
At 05 August, 2006 22:43, Blogger ejc11 said...

"Seriously, what is the real CT: That the Bush Regime used this as a precursor for advancement of the NWO and a police state in the US, or that 19 unexperienced foreigners successfully hijacked 4 commercial jet airliners with box cutters and managed to pull off orchestrated and well timed attacks at a 75% success rate - slipping past NORAD's World Renowned US Air Defense systems (if they didn't shoot down the plane in PA like "Let's Roll" suggests) 4 out of 4 times..."

First off, lets face facts--the Bush Regime isn't smart enough to pull this off...oh, wait, that's just what they want us to think.

Second off, I've taught high school physics (but I am not a structural engineer), and I can't see anything about the videos of the falling of WTC 1 & 2 that doesn't synch with the 911 report or with the fundamental laws of Newtonian physics.


"According to polls, and even a statistical revue of the responses on this crack-job site, YOU are the minority."

Granted, I've been out of the CT loop for a while, but what polls do you speak of? Who conducted them? Where were they taken?


"Second, look at the 9/11 data and the bigger picture rather than each little item with a view to disprove it."

Let's take a hypothetical situation here...Let's say that I've never seen an armidillo in Texas. I've never personally seen a living one or the remains of a dead one. I've seen them on video and in pictures, but obviously pictures and videos can be faked, as many in this forum have pointed out, so that really can't be considered evidence. I've even talked to at least 2 people from Texas who claim to have seen them, but since it's only 2 people in a state of millions, that testimony can't be trusted either. Let's not forget the fact that I've never been to Texas myself. According to the "logic" that a great number of people (CT's and debunkers alike) use, I can therefore assert the "message" that armadillos don't exist in Texas. Obviously, if that is my "message", the minor details do seem to carry quite a bit of weight. The fact that non-believers of my message just want to hurl insults DOES NOT foster discussion, it just pushes me to insult them back, and then insist that they bring an armadillo to my home with a signed petition of more than half of the residents of the state of Texas that the armadillo is in fact from Texas, etc. etc. etc... If you haven't gotten my point by now, please take yourself out of the gene pool.

 
At 06 August, 2006 22:05, Blogger 77research.org said...

To ejc11 - I have a genuine physics question that you might be able to answer. If anyone else can help, then go for it.

On the welcome page of http://debunking911.com/ there's a picture of WTC1 or 2 collapsing. You see the top section of the tower at an angle. This means the support on one side gave way first, causing the mass of the top section to move downwards at an angle.

The section is perhaps 10 to 15 floors.

Looking at the very top of the tower, you can tell that the angle has caused an overhang, so there is definite movement of mass to the side.

My question is this: How did the top section proceed to fall straight down into the towers footprint?

Newton's law of inertia makes this impossible. The kinetic energy is released here in the sideways/downward momentum of mass in the WTC1/2 top chunk. The offset momentum in the movement of mass can only be altered with the application opposite force. If you also account for the resistance the top chunk would see from the collapse of each floor below it in the famous pancake theory, then the chunk would have increased momentum to the side.

Even the theory of explosives in the towers can't explain it. If high explosives caused everything below this chunk to collapse at freefall speed, it would remove the resistance but can't stop the momentum of the mass clearly at work in the picture.

All I can think of is that the laws of inertia were maintained, but the top chunk was subjected to demolition and annihilation during freefall, sending small sections in multiple directions. All under the cover of a dust cloud, so unseen. But that's so remote, it's not worth considering.

If you can explain this to me, you'll have my total respect. So many different events on 9/11 make it feels like the laws of physics were suspended for the day.

 
At 07 August, 2006 03:41, Blogger horndog98 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 07 August, 2006 03:52, Blogger horndog98 said...

Dear blogger, I am not an expert on demolitions, explosives or aviation. I will even concede that often reality is stranger than fiction and that perhaps all those coincidences, inconsistencies and outright suspicious circumstances outlined by the Loose Change tape are all baseless.

However, if I can accept that (and it is quite a stretch in some instances) why can't you accept the possibility that it could have indeed been an inside job? Motive you say? How about this for motive, try
this one on for size.

I don't know about you but when NeoCon dogma starts to echo Nazi ideals I think it's time to be afraid, very afraid.

 
At 07 August, 2006 08:08, Blogger midnight said...

This entire blog is nothing more than one of but many "public opinion" churners.

Long established, well documented, and publicly known agency resources are known to exist in all of the world's Governments.

Agenda aside, this entire blog is nothing more than yet another attempt by those who wish to have their ends met, without thought or care to those who know better, to sway as large an audience as possible.

Thereofore, the "evidence" posted on it is meaningless.

 
At 08 August, 2006 02:17, Blogger danny said...

"why would the creators of Loose Change go through so much trouble to try to uncover something if there was absolutely no truth about it"

This is the easiest question of all to answer: Beause they have no lives, and they are a few fries short of a happy meal.

 
At 09 August, 2006 12:53, Blogger Nathan Mcginty said...

let's not forget about how much money the LC folks are going to be making off DVD & bumper sticker & t-shirt sales (and the book which is sure to come), etc.

the other problem with you LC'ers is that you think anyone who disagrees with you is either "one of them" or a rabid bush supporter.

i think bush and his administration is one of the most corrupt in history. i also happen to think that LC is a steaming pile of garbage that isn't supported by the evidence. Just a brief example - your big time BYU "thermite charge" professor also wrote a paper with evidence supporting Christ's visit to ancient America.

bush sucks and so does LC. did i just blow your fragile little minds?

 
At 10 August, 2006 15:21, Blogger macrom123 said...

This blog is such BS that I need a shovel to dig my way out of it.

Its posts three "possible lies" in contrast to over 100 truths. Not even to mention the blatant Photoshop on those Osama photos.

Wake up and smell the friggin coffee. The government is not beyond harming its own citizens for political and economic gain. It's going to be so sad/pathetic in 30 years when the truth and files are leaked showing the fallacy behind it all. There are too many gaps in the government's explanation for any person of average intelligence to believe it. This blog just shows me the extent of true-believer syndrome and how resistent some people are to new thoughts.

 
At 15 August, 2006 05:47, Blogger Cooper said...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

Maddox has the easiest way of debunking Loose Change :D

 
At 18 August, 2006 10:26, Blogger Niggle said...

Oh please - 3 lies ?
Next to hundreds of valid truths...

Jeez who's the conspiracist again?
Here's a piece of straw: better hold on tight!

1/ Spools ARE untouched - you want to split the hair a bit finer - my God what's the point can't you SEE.
A 500mph 100Ton chunk of steel hit that wall full of fuel, supposedly - and all the garden gnomes are still standing on the lawn! Oh, and also the chunk of steel disappeared inside a 10' hole in the wall: right!

2/ Osama - you don't even USE the video the Govt gave us as Osama: your images ARE Osame - BUT LOOK AT THE DEC 13 2001 VIDO PLEASE:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lpAB8vn5VXo
Now THAT guy doesn't even look SIMILAR... But clearly you believe that this has something to do with a gold ring: just look at the video, please.

3/ Securacom: up to ONE DAY BEFORE 9/11 MARVIN BUSH was Director of Securacom.
Sheesh you're denying FACTS and calling people conspiradroids whereas you haven't researched diddly.
THEN John ONeill got the job the day before it went down - and JONeill was an anti-terrorist expert .. look it's a long story and clearly you haven't got the BRAIN to deal with it.

Welcome to the New World Order, folks.

IF YOu'RE DAFT ENOUGH TO THINK THESE THREE "EASILY UNDERSTOOD LIES" will somehow make you able to DEBATE 911 you are SADLY MISTAKEN.
These 3 are the LAMEST posts I've EVER read...

Oh - yeah - that's right - a bunch of guys who are mostly still alive did all this in suicide missions - sure....

 
At 25 August, 2006 18:14, Blogger ritmo said...

3 points of dispute (or lies as you emotively call them) do not a debunk make!..3...count em...1,2,3...hardly compelling given that the film last 80 minutes...Go through EACH & EVERY point of dispute in the film & disprove them,or at least more than 3...Where are the "conspiracy bashing" films?If "Loose Change" is bunk,you've got to DO WHAT THEY ARE DOING..ie.come up with sound arguments that contradict THEIR sound arguments...Why would you debunk the film anyway?Let the film stand as a rebuttal to the official 9/11 report that is RIDDLED with unanswered questions,implausibilities & anomalies....What NEEDS debunking is the official story because THAT IS THE ONE THAT COUNTS...any fool can write independent film makers off.

 
At 25 August, 2006 18:36, Blogger ritmo said...

The most damning evidence against the US gov. does not come from films like Loose Change...it comes from the government itself,without THEIR evidence (ie.their LACK of evidence) there would BE no Loose Change,there would BE no "conspiracy theory",until the US gov. is made to be answerable for the litany of discrepancies,untruths & anomalies,they are under suspicion of treason and conspiracy to mass murder of its own people...Of course they already have committed war crimes & are part of a long tradition of corrupt US government,so I can understand the public's acceptance/complacency/disinterest...have a war on AMERICAN shores,maybe that will sway public opinion.

 
At 25 August, 2006 18:51, Blogger ritmo said...

You say Loose Change lies "repeatedly",yet you offer only 3 examples...people are not looking for LIES,they are looking for TRUTH...a truth that has been witheld...until the facts are UNDOUBTED then any rebuttal MUST be seen as QUESTIONING these "facts",which are NOT facts in any case,they are STATEMENTS given by interested parties.It is not about disproving theories,it is about PRESENTING EVIDENCE which offers IRREFUTABLE PROOF.Neither party (the US gov. & the "doubters") have done so.

 
At 07 September, 2006 14:56, Blogger ArlingtonWitness said...

hey nitwits.

If you want witnesses to the 757 going into the Pentagon, I can provide them. He used my street to line up his attack. Hundreds of people saw it. How did a missile knock down light poles 50 ft apart by the way? The plane vaporized because the area it hit was roughly equivalent to hitting the side of a battleship. So pull your heads out of your childish little asses, and stop buying this moronic crap put out by a pubescent loser who couldn't even get into film school.

 
At 07 September, 2006 15:04, Blogger ArlingtonWitness said...

Here's something else for you idiots to contemplate: a controlled demolition looks similar to the WTC collapse, not the other way around. Any demolition expert will tell you that what they do is 'hasten a buildings' demise', not 'blow it up'. Only Hollywood blows up buildings. Demolitions knock out the building supports and let gravity do the rest. Sound familiar?

The type of 'logic' displayed by the moronic conspiracy theories could be used just as effectively to prove that 'cold causes snow'.

Go to a dictionary and look up the definitions of 'correlation' and 'causation'. Morons.

Why doesn't your little hairless-dick filmaker bother talking to eyewitnesses?

 
At 07 September, 2006 15:11, Blogger ArlingtonWitness said...

This little 3rd-grade discussion regarding the 'spools' is hilareous, only topped by the "it is therefore scientifically impossible for aluminum to melt" statement in the film. Little Dylan learned that in high school perhaps?

What on earth makes you think that "upright spools" mean anything?? How much did they weigh? Where were they originally? How much force would it take to knock them over? Were they laying on their sides and knocked upright?

You don't know, because you're a bunch of simplistic, gullible morons.

 
At 07 September, 2006 15:25, Blogger ArlingtonWitness said...

and a few more things, morons.

The 757 was travelling faster than its design speed when it hit the Pentagon, full of fuel for a cross-country flight. There's a little thing called 'kinetic energy' that you may learn about in college physics, if you make it that far.

So all this talk about jet fuel not melting aluminum only showcases your stupidity.

As implied by its name - you morons - the Pentagon is a 5-sided building (the largest office in the US) that can be hit effectively from any point on the compass. So you don't have to be Top Gun to hit it.

And the plane didn't actually impact the building, it hit the helipad and bounced into it.

Rumsfeld was also in his office that day, so apparently he wasn't in on it. Fuckwits.

 
At 07 September, 2006 15:35, Blogger ArlingtonWitness said...

Hey, stupids. Remember the plane that crashed into the White House in the 90's? Or were you still in diapers?

Planes routinely violated restricted airspace around Washington before 9/11. It's a simple fact, easy to discern by anyone with half a brain.

Your premise doesn't even make sense. The ONE target they would have hit was the Capitol if all of your paranoid wet dreams were true.

 
At 08 September, 2006 10:14, Blogger bushmustbecrazy said...

This site has NEO-CON written all over it. Get off the cross and learn to use your brain. Have the ability for abstract thought. They called it the age of reason because people were using their brains and questioning EVERYthing. You idiot neo cons have taken us back to the stone age with your head in the sand ways. Lets not get all crazy about what hit the buildings on 9-11 and lets all agree that there are more questions that need to be asked and answered. We need independent researchers to have access granted to provide a thorough investigation, PERIOD.

 
At 08 September, 2006 14:53, Blogger getsmart said...

hmm...well I just watched the video "loose change" and came here looking for some hard factual contradictions about the movie.
So far all I see is some imbecilic name calling. What, are all you guys still in junior high school??
I guess you're not really ready to tackle serious issues...
Well, until you do, don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
Best,

 
At 09 September, 2006 01:59, Blogger NVJoe said...

It's terribly obvious that too many people don't pay any attention!
This was posted as the three easiest things to understand and all the "CT's" want everything explained away.
It's so hard for them to grasp the simplist of ideas, so it's no wonder they can't see the blatant facts.
Also, viewing real sites where they consult actual experts in structural engineering or demolitions and not an expert in astronomy and physics, might be helpful for those searching for the real truth.
I'm sure most of these snake oil consumers will prefer to keep on buying the oil because they KNOW it cures their ailments.

 
At 10 September, 2006 01:15, Blogger ferrell said...

The "Untouched" Spools...

Just thinking out loud here... What is meant by "untouched" spools?

Looking at the picture, it appears that fire retardant foam has been sprayed upon the entire area on and around the spools. Other than this, they look completely intact, and a couple are still standing upright.

Why are intact spools standing a few dozen feet away from the spot where a massive explosion (so hot and powerful that it disintigrated an entire plane) occured?

Shouldn't the spools have been knocked even a few yards back? Why were wooden/plastic(?) spools not completely consummed/destroyed by the energy capable of turning a jetliner into dust?

Plane = vaporized.

Spools = intact and standing.

I think this is the real question.

If you can explain it to me, I'll shut up.

 
At 10 September, 2006 02:42, Blogger sweetp said...

Well isnt this interesting? i have watched loose change edition 1 and i am about to watch the second edition when i came accross this site, and thought to myself, ok loose change scared the s%¤t out of me and maybe i could feel a little safer at night by reading this debunking website. however this is not the case it has done nothing for me.

Now i have to admit here that i havent read the official 9/11 report and so i dont know what lies or unanswered questions loose change refers to but it did do one important thing for me, it made me want to know the truth. Surely this is a simple task as we all live in the "information age". however this is not easy and that gets the alarm bells ringing, because this alledged conspiricy stretches allot further than just the american adminstration and reaches my once beloved england aswell. because now, as a result of the "attacks" on american soil i now live in a country that can arrest and detain suspects for 30 days on the smallest suspicion and also shoot dead innocent people in tube stations in london. i am watched 24 hours a day by cameras everywhere i go, i will soon have to carry an identity card everwhere with possibly biometric data that will have correspond to a DNA databes that the goverment wants to establish. This is government i voted for and i want to know if these measures are justified, after all i pay for them.

I pay taxes and threfore i paid for the war in iraq that killed innocent peolple. I want to ask WHY?

I paid for the search for weapons of mass destruction. WHERE ARE THEY?

Please dont think i am just thinking of my wallet here the human factor the hurt and pain people have suffered should surely stir you to find the truth.

Can anyone help me find the truth.

 
At 13 September, 2006 00:42, Blogger JoeZeppi said...

if anyone is looking for anymore evidence debunking the 9/11 conspiracy theories you might want to check out this article by Popular Mechanics:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

 
At 13 September, 2006 08:15, Blogger Hammer said...

Loose change asks some good questions about whether or not commercial airliners, flown by a bunch of meathead terrorists, were actually used in the attacks. My conclusion is, only highly-trained pilots could have possibly navigated these planes.

As a private pilot, rated single-engine VFR, I know it takes intense concentration, ability and properly working equipment to put a lousy Cessna 172 exactly where you want it on a runway. Hitting a "target" like the numbers at the near end of a runway is ALWAYS a battle... this at about *70 knots* with total weight of only *2000 pounds*.

Try it on a good flight sim like X-Plane that has FAA-approved flight physics. Take a single-engine plane up and try to bring it down EXACTLY where you want it. Try it with a heavy jet. Try it with NAV and/or autopilot set to direct you to exactly that location (and if, as someone with little or no flight time in a big jet, you can even figure out how to do that). Try it 10 times, 20 times... and you'll see it doesn't get much easier even with practice! Variables like weather and equipment and flight control settings change each and every scenario.

Yes, they could program the NAV facilities to point their nose to the target. They would still have to be able to correctly calculate the precise formulae to ground speed, rate of descent, and distance to get them precisely to the target. THEN they would have to be able to maintain the numbers they came up with, which is REALLY the hard part. Try these things on a flight sim. Don't forget, you're like me, Joe Patriot sitting in your warm safe home, not an adrenalin-charged, radical extremist who's emotions have taken him to a height where he is prepared to sacrifice his life and several hundred others.

 
At 13 September, 2006 08:39, Blogger Hammer said...

Joezeppi says check out Popular Mechanics. this is the self-same publication that runs cover articles like "Home How-To: Siding, Sheetwall and More: "Jay Leno's Garage; Jay Knows His Cars Inside And Out".

Hey, I've loved PM since I was a kid taking apart my dad's watch to see if i could put it back together again... but as an investigative source of "proof" of anything?

One of the first laws of journalistic fact-gathering is to consider your source. I used it for years in the business and still apply it to my personal life. Having read it online, I don't personally give it much weight, considering the sources and attributions in the article.

But I won't be canceling my subscription anytime soon!

 
At 13 September, 2006 08:41, Blogger Peter said...

The preceding post said "As a private pilot, rated single-engine VFR, I know it takes intense concentration, ability and properly working equipment to put a lousy Cessna 172 exactly where you want it on a runway". Either this person isn't a private pilot or he/she's a garbage one. 1) No one is rated VFR ... this refers to a flight condition (as opposed IFR which only instrument rated pilots can fly in). Private pilot, SEL is the correct license and endorsement. 2) It's quite easy to fly a Cessna and only moderately more difficult to land one ... most students can solo after only 25 or so hours Pilot-In-Command. 3) The terrorists didn't have to take-off or land the plane ... they likely had hand-held GPS but even if they didn't, VOR navigation is simple. Anyone who's seen a movie knows how to increase the airspeed of a passenger jet ... standard turns are very easy, even in a jumbo. 4) The terrorists had flight training ... at a flight school ... one can finish an instrument rating in TWO WEEKS, let alone months of time. 5) With aplogies to the software simulators, arguing that a non-pilot will have difficulty commanding a jumbo and using VOR navigation is a moronic argument. 6) Any pilot worth his salt does not need to calculate ground speed or rate of decent to crash into a building especially if you have 100s of miles to decend ... read the altimeter, increase airspeed ... fly into huge building.

People have a mystical view of piloting a plane, but for those who've been trained, crashing into a huge building on a cloudless day is not hard. (and yes I'm an instrument rated pilot)

 
At 13 September, 2006 12:12, Blogger tmac said...

This could be the dumbest debate I have ever seen. Unfortunately, some people are actually swayed by the video because they do not know any better. Michael Moore's film was enough conspiracy for me. I wouldnt waste my time debating these conspiracy idiots.

 
At 13 September, 2006 15:49, Blogger J_Rudy said...

Umm OK, I am supposed to believe that fact that 9/11 was planned by at least 2 administrations, who copperated with Muslim terrorists or possibly a Jewish sympathizer who pretends to be Osama. The plan was implemeted and carried out by thousands of willing volunteers who planted bombs, flew planes into buildings, killed the people who were supposed to be on the planes, and planned the "cruise missle attack" Has anyone explained where the cruise missle came from? Was it a plane or a ship? Or a super secret missle launcher in the Washington Monument? You need a pilot, the arms loaders, and half the airbase where the plane took off in on the plot. The naval option might be easier. I am sure its not hard to find an entire navy ship or submarine loaded with Americans willing to shoot a cruise missle at the pentagon and keep their mouth shut about it.

Then of course you have all the witnesses and experts who agreed with the cabal to back up the story. So did those people actually get on the plane, and then were forced to make their depserate phone calls? Or did they drop into a hole at the end of the jetway and are now living in a different dimension. Oh I know, they plane was divereted to the super secret airbase, where they launched the super secret cruise missle. Did they round up the air traffic controllers before or after the attack? It must have been hard work to round up every witness who saw the cruise missle and "dispose" of them.

What about the experts? They were obviously planted in the Universities and think tanks decades ago with the soul purpose of perpetuating the lie. But I'm not worried, Loose Change has a guy that tests water at UL who can refute the experts.

So what about motive. I think Bush did this so he could go into Iraq and ruin his legacy. Oh.. and make himself and Dick Cheney richer than they already are. Its a shame. He could have just gotten a cut of the UN Oil-for-Food swindle which would have been eaiser.

Whats next on the conspiracy theory list? I vote for How the Bush adminsistration caused Katrina, and then prevented hurricanes this year to emabarass all the left-wing nut jobs who were pissed the weather service lowered the hurricane forecast.

 
At 13 September, 2006 15:49, Blogger J_Rudy said...

Umm OK, I am supposed to believe that fact that 9/11 was planned by at least 2 administrations, who cooperated with Muslim terrorists or possibly a Jewish sympathizer who pretends to be Osama. The plan was implemented and carried out by thousands of willing volunteers who planted bombs, flew planes into buildings, killed the people who were supposed to be on the planes, and planned the "cruise missile attack" Has anyone explained where the cruise missile came from? Was it a plane or a ship? Or a super secret missile launcher in the Washington Monument? You need a pilot, the arms loaders, and half the airbase where the plane took off in on the plot. The naval option might be easier. I am sure it’s not hard to find an entire navy ship or submarine loaded with Americans willing to shoot a cruise missile at the pentagon and keep their mouth shut about it.

Then of course you have all the witnesses and experts who agreed with the cabal to back up the story. So did those people actually get on the plane, and then were forced to make their desperate phone calls? Or did they drop into a hole at the end of the jetway and are now living in a different dimension. Oh I know, they plane was diverted to the super secret airbase, where they launched the super secret cruise missile. Did they round up the air traffic controllers before or after the attack? It must have been hard work to round up every witness who saw the cruise missile and "dispose" of them.

What about the experts? They were obviously planted in the Universities and think tanks decades ago with the soul purpose of perpetuating the lie. But I'm not worried; Loose Change has a guy that tests water at UL who can refute the experts.

So what about motive. I think Bush did this so he could go into Iraq and ruin his legacy. Oh.. And make himself and Dick Cheney richer than they already are. It’s a shame. He could have just gotten a cut of the UN Oil-for-Food swindle which would have been easier.

What’s next on the conspiracy theory list? I vote for How the Bush administration caused Katrina, and then prevented hurricanes this year to embarrass all the left-wing nut jobs who were pissed the weather service lowered the hurricane forecast.

 
At 14 September, 2006 01:03, Blogger julie said...

Ok... The fact that the conspirists are giving so much credit to our government to be that smart to plan all this, is amazing. Bush is a c+ student. If he was part of this, he was not the leader.

Also the one's who believe in our C+ leader should stop and wonder about their own intellegents. Stop responding with insults and mocking. That is childish.
Julie

 
At 15 September, 2006 09:35, Blogger J_Rudy said...

Mocking stupidity is not childish. Believing in wild conspiracy theories that don't stand up to scrutiny is childish. Trusting a C+ leader may be foolish, but trusting a couple of amateur wannabe documentarians who obviously have a political motivation and deliberately distort facts is foolishly believing propaganda.

 
At 15 September, 2006 18:51, Blogger Bex said...

I've just watch Loose Change 2nd Ed, and have subsequently been doing a little researching of my own, which has lead me to this site. Coming from the South Pacific, I hope my perspective is a little more neutral.
-------------------------------
Having read a few interviews with Dylan Avery, and seen some media reports about him and the doco, I feel that some of you guys are missing the point.

Loose Change is about asking questions and making people think. Some of you posted comments, saying the the doco doesn't answer questions, that it blames the government/Bush Administration and that they draw false conclusions. I will draw your attention to a very good interview with Dylan Avery http://www.cbc.ca/sunday/911avery.html. He is not claiming it was "The Government" ... He freely admits that he is not a scientist and that some scientists would disagree with his theories. This does not mean that he is wrong. Nor does it mean that they are right.

I also think the labelling of Loose Change as a "conspiracy theory" gives it a negative stigma that makes it easy for people to blow it off. I've told people about a documentary that challenges the accepted theories of 911, only to be laughed at.

The reality is, the Government is supposed to work for the people. In the USA's case in particular, it often seems that the tail is wagging the dog, and the dog doesn't question this. A true democracy holds its leaders to account, and in my humble opinion, we all deserve to know all of the facts surrounding September 11, 2001 and the subsequent events.

 
At 15 September, 2006 19:20, Blogger Bex said...

RE: Julie
I agree with you that Bush is probably not the head of some kind of "operation 911". I also do not think that "the government" was behind it. However, if those so-called terrorist attacks were not pulled off by Osama bin Laden etc, I would believe that individuals in high places were involved.
[Side note: "Intelligence" not "intelligents" :)]

RE: J Rudy

Maybe Loose Change doesn't stand up to close scrutiny (though I personally believe it raises good questions that merit further and more rigorous investigation by academics); but the official version doesn't stand up to the scrutiny either.

THIS is the point.

How do you know that what you see on the news or in the papers isn't propoganda? I can tell you, the rest of the world is presented with a really different picture than is shown in the US.

 
At 18 September, 2006 18:02, Blogger J_Rudy said...

I find it amazing how desperately people will cling to a "Theory" long after its been disproven. Rather than forming a conclusion around the the evidence, they try to form the evidence around their conclusion. Example - JFK assisination and the Moon Landing. While we are at it, Pearl Harbor is far more fertile ground for conspiracy than 9/11. Did FDR know about the Japanese attack ahead of time? The world wants to know!

I keep hearing this common refrain about "asking questions". This has become so cliche. Basically it means I don't want to believe the truth so I will continue to ask inane quesitons to avoid facing reality.

Bex - Where exactly does the official account of 9/11 not stand up to scrutiny?

I am quite sure that no papers outside the US would ever distort or misrepresnt facts. Ever read Der Spiegel?

The real question everyone should be discussing is how do we deal with Radical Islam. Instead we are still arguing about whether or not Bush is the next reincarnation of Hitler. They are cutting off the heads of civialians and human rights workers and we are upset becuase gaurds at Gitmo are using harsh language and loud music on Al-Queda prisoners.

Should the US pull up the drawbridge and disengage? Common sense tells me this isn't the right stategy, but why should I risk my neck for the world? Apparently no one likes the job we are doing, so let someone else do it. France is always whining about wanting to be the world leader again. Fine, let them. I am sure we will be willing to send a few hundred soldiers to support their efforts. The radical muslims have already told Europe that they are next, but I don't think they are listening.

 
At 20 September, 2006 19:00, Blogger prescott bush said...

Ofcourse Marvin wasn't, fully in control of all security, in the WTC. You forget to mention it was him, and Wirt Walker, George Walker Bushs' cousin through his grandfathers to Hubert Walkers Daughter. And they both ran security at the WTC

 
At 20 September, 2006 19:02, Blogger prescott bush said...

*marriage To*

 
At 26 September, 2006 11:01, Blogger TalbotMonk said...

Man oh man. I made it halfway through the blog and couldn't take any more. It blows my mind that there are so many people out there who are a) easily convinced of conspiracy theories ("I never met a conspiracy theory I didn't like") b) hate the United States with such passion that they are blinded by logic if not facts.

Shutmedown is typical of I think "b". You are pathetic -- you can't imagine why these idiots would make this film yet, as "Splash Two" nicely puts, you have no problem believing that hundreds of people (and it *would* takes hundreds) have no problem killing thousands of Americans so they can buy a new Mercedes?! You also said that we are the minority! Hate to break it to you. The only reason the site isn't flooded with posts supporting the debunking of this junk is that most of us wouldn't waste our time. The only reason I decided to post anything was someone was pushing this junk on my kids at school. Recruit them while they're young. It worked for you while you were pushing drugs to it might work for this as well, right?

I'm not going to waste my time trying to find the clown who posted that info about how the government *and* media was behind this. Okay, so now we're past hundreds of conspirators and into the thousands.

I have to illusions that our politicians are capable of some really bad and underhanded things -- by the way that's republican AND democrat, but this is so far over the top and the facts (except at a high, glossy level) don't support it. You just make yourself and your liberal party look stupid. I voted for Clinton twice. I can't see that I will ever vote democrat again if you are the type of people that make up that party.

So lay there at night buring in hatred for this great country all the while knowing that the MAJORITY of us are fairly happy with our lives and proud to be Americans! We may not be perfect, but we're closer than anyone else (( and I have lived in Germany, Sweden, and spent time in several other countries )).

So bite me conspirators!

 
At 28 September, 2006 05:40, Blogger vitoneo said...

You know I have spent the last 6 months trailing thru footage, reading documents and listening to both arguments and the conclusion is heavily heavily stacked in the favour to the conspiracy loony nutters!!
IM VERY PROUD TO BE ONE OF THEM!!

For those of you that are still not awake....i say dig now!! The truth is soooo glaringly obvious but the human conditioning is incredibly deep, so dig,dig,dig and a crevice will open that will astound your every believe be it religious or scientific. PEACE, LUV an FLUFF

 
At 09 October, 2006 09:47, Blogger Cokes said...

Here's a government conspiracy for you. The Bush administration puts a handful of college students on its payroll to produce a documentary alleging the government planned and executed 9/11, in order to siphon outrage away from actual abuses of power. Like abuse of detainees at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, wiretapping, and a litany of past CIA adventures in South America. With your imagination stoked by the comic book language of evil masterminds and shadowy cabals, perhaps these less cinematic atrocities seem tame by comparison. Makes sense doesn't it?

Anyway, you can argue points with conspiracy theorists is tedious and it gets you nowhere. These theories also belie the most basic understanding of the way that governments operate, like the fact that the FBI and CIA hate each other and would jump at the first chance to call each other out if they suspected there was an iota of truth in any of this. Sigh. If only Al Gore was president . . .

 
At 11 October, 2006 06:33, Blogger Dmuerto said...

So i saw the video and i was no way
this cant be true. are goverment was set up to protect us, they have never in their lifes killed innocent people for profite....their in iraq to bake the kids cookies not shot them for oil.

Bush is not an idiot he taught Einstein everything he knows.

Ok, here is where i stand. LC does give some rising question of this and that. They do show video, audio, etc etc. what do you show, a picture of Osama, thats good detective work.And you do seem to sound like "they". Facts are facts. Deal With It.

 
At 11 October, 2006 06:33, Blogger Dmuerto said...

So i saw the video and i was no way
this cant be true. are goverment was set up to protect us, they have never in their lifes killed innocent people for profite....their in iraq to bake the kids cookies not shot them for oil.

Bush is not an idiot he taught Einstein everything he knows.

Ok, here is where i stand. LC does give some rising question of this and that. They do show video, audio, etc etc. what do you show, a picture of Osama, thats good detective work.And you do seem to sound like "they". Facts are facts. Deal With It.

 
At 13 October, 2006 04:10, Blogger Bubbers said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 13 October, 2006 04:13, Blogger Bubbers said...

At 11:42 AM, SHUTEMDOWN said...
SHUT THIS PIECE OF SHIT WEBSITE DOWN YOU FUCKIN MORON!

This site, and everything it represents, is why our freedoms will be handed to the real criminals of 911 without much in the way of resistance. If you need to debunk small details concerning these issues, while ignoring the lies and omissions in the 911 Commission's Report, you are a robot. You are working with them. I INVITE you, although you probably won't bother, to come over to my blog so that you can answer a couple of real simple, real straight forward questions that Loose Change, 1000's of Intelligent Scientists, and A MAJORITY of the CITIZENS of this NATION are also asking, and have every right to ask. Do a statistical Survey of your own site, and tell me how many people think YOU are the idiot, not Conspiracy Theorists, whose only crime so far is to think for themselves.
SHUT SCREW911 DOWN NOW

---------------------------------

CTs are fucking stupid beyond belief! This joke of a post is another example of how absolutely retarded these people are. Our freedoms are being handed away huh? I think you need to go to just about any other country in the world. You'll get a good idea about freedoms. Another funny point as far as freedoms go, you assholes are always bitching about how all of our First Amendment rights are being taken away, and you want us to come to a CT's blog and answer some questions. That's funny cause I went on the LC forum, made one post contradicting a CT and it was removed and I've been banned from the forum. How's that for losing Freedom of Speech to a controlling fascist movement? You fucking retard. And 1,000's of intelligent scientists? Name 50 of them.You couldn't even do that. And how come every single person who doesn't agree with you is "working with them"? Who , the government? Paranoia must be a bitch. Smart to think for yourself and question something you don't agree with. Beyond all reason to ignore a shitload of evidence against what you think. Dumbass. And stop using words like robot and sheep. I know it makes you dipshits feel "cool" but it's starting to get really old. God, people with low IQ's who try to pass themselves off as smart are really starting to get on my nerves.FUCK!!!

 
At 13 October, 2006 05:55, Blogger Bubbers said...

Not to mention I'm getting sick of you assholes going around and telling everybody to think for themselves. You watched a movie full of lies, unclassified info that anyone in this country with a computer could find, and all sorts of bullshit claims backed up by NO solid evidence and you fucking believe all of it. Yeah people should think for themselves and they don't need me or you to tell them that. Especially not a stupid gullible fuck like yourself.

 
At 13 October, 2006 11:03, Blogger human3246517869 said...

Very good site.

 
At 13 October, 2006 11:26, Blogger human3246517869 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 17 October, 2006 11:40, Blogger LeifTheSkullsplitter said...

You're not doing very well with "Screw Loose Change." Reason: Whatever pickayune errors you can find among the hundreds of facts assembled in Loose Change, the DVD shows overwhelmingly that the government is lying.

That makes you what I like to call a "dung beetle patriot." You willingly swallow government lies and bully others into swallowing them. Patriotism, if anything, means telling the truth.

 
At 24 October, 2006 16:25, Blogger pending said...

It annoys me that by not believing L/c that implies that I am being force fed all the lies the government is feeding the American people. I, as many other people have stated before me, happen to despise the current government and know that they have lied to us on many occasions. Knowing this does, I still do not believe that the government perpetrated 9/11. While they certanly benifited from the attacks, the risks of getting caught from such a massive scale operation seems to me to outweigh the finacial gains.

Also, previous posters have asked how a sick man in a hut in the middle of Afghanistan could possibly have pulled off 9/11. Osama bin Laden heads Al Quaeda, an international terrorist organization with cells and training facilities all over the world. It would not be out of his capabilities to highjack four planes, as highjackings have ocurred multiple times in the past.

Finally just to nitpick; L/c asks how a fireball could have exploded down the elevator shaft which is supposedly airtight. Well, a plane crashing into the tower would probably puncture a hole in said elevator shaft.

 
At 24 October, 2006 16:35, Blogger pending said...

another thing, you CTs remind me a lot of the hippy movement with your "government drone", and "the revolution", and "we must rise up" talk.

 
At 26 October, 2006 16:09, Blogger Bubbers said...

Thank you pending. I, like you, do not like or totally trust our government. It's just another tactic used by the CTists. The funny thing there is that anyone who disagrees with them is a sheep, robot, shill, etc. It's hilarious. They watch a movie full of conjecture, speculation, and blatant fallacies, and they believe every bit of it.They are brainwashed by it. It's pathetic. I think some of them nned to learn what thinking for yourself is.

 
At 02 November, 2006 10:24, Blogger Patriot13 said...

Did they lie about The World Trade Center buildings 1, 2 and 7 looking like implosions, and the fact that there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon? My hats off to you, though.....you accomplished your goal of confusing the issue!

 
At 02 November, 2006 10:25, Blogger Patriot13 said...

Did they lie about The World Trade Center buildings 1, 2 and 7 looking like implosions, and the fact that there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon? My hats off to you, though.....you accomplished your goal of confusing the issue!

 
At 02 November, 2006 16:52, Blogger Pat said...

Yes, they lied about the WTC buildings looking like controlled demolitions. WTC 7 is the only building that looks like a controlled demolition, largely because it collapsed at the bottom first, unlike the two towers.

 
At 17 November, 2006 16:24, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well done. I can't agree with you more.

Let this shock you: I'm liberal! Yep. Just because I'm a part of liberalism doesn't mean I have to automatically believe the lies Loose Change pushes down the throat. I value knowledge more than anything, and I really don't believe L/C counts as knowledge with the amount of lies and drivel it contains.

Heads up to other liberals: if you believe in L/C, then you're just insane!

 
At 25 November, 2006 21:48, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Listen...I am trying to approach all of this open minded..and I mean ALL of it..their video and your refutation of it, but you are seriously taking this spool thing out of context.

By 'untouched' I take it they do NOT mean undamaged, but rather, 'untouched' relative to being struck by a skidding plane. And in fairness, if the plane the plane struck with such force that it was vaporized, surely the spools would be obliterated.

Also, the undertone of this blog is hostile. To say someone is mistaken is one thing. To call them a liar is another. The ad hominem falacies are thick enough to cut with a knife in here. If Loose Change is so patently false, won't people be able to see that for themselves without your help? There's nothing wrong with open dialog, but Screw Loose Change? Whoa... sounds personal. What is your motivation for such a vigorous refutation?

 
At 11 December, 2006 15:34, Blogger The Freelance Minion Blog said...

I just heard about this blog on the SETI and Skepticism podcast. Good job guys.

And the top of this coment line are three great examples of the falicies with the loose change video. They demonstrate the lack of logic to downright untruthfulness. They are called "nitpicking" by the people defending LC, but actually the spools and the ring are themselves nits which show the conspiracy people don't know as much about their subjects as they claim.

And then the comment board shows their Conspiracy nut defenders make half their arguements personal name calling attacks. I am skeptical of my government but really, as incompetent as the current government is, do you really think they could have kept this secret without more than a few loose ends showing? Their would have had to been HUNDREDS of people actively invloved. Where is one person who has had a change of heart?

I'd like another round of 9/11 hearings so we can expose the truth and not only show how incompetent both Bush and Giuliani were, but also how crazy the conspiracy theories are.

 
At 28 December, 2006 12:21, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't get any of this conspiracy crap quite frankly. I have done my own research on a number of the issues that are constantly brought up.

The first tower to go down that morning. There is very good video of this building collapse. If you watch closely the first failure that starts is the corner of the building showing the most damage. If you watch carefully you will see the columns buckle inwards. The start of a controlled demolition would not cause an inwards buckling of a column. I have seen the conspiracy stuff showing an outward buckling of floors above where the collapse initiates. That is not unusual. The stresses that must have been applied to the columns above the initial collapse had to be in the hundreds of millions of tons. So to believe after the collapse begins that structure above this would remain somehow intact is unbeliavable.
If you continue to watch the video towrds the end of the collapse you will see some of the structure trying to remain standing. So I am to believe that there was controlled demolition but in parts of the building no charges were placed to allow for the possibility of it to remain standing at least in part. So the demolition crew was inept. So they pulled off the most shocking and daring demolition in history but were inept in placing the charges. The last thing about the towers coming down that I hear allot is that they came down in their own footprint. That simply is not true. There was significant damage to a number of other building that were not hit by planes. If these were controlled demolitions why were these buildings damaged some of them so severely that they had to later be torn down or were in fact brought down by the damage?

 
At 06 January, 2007 19:20, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As usual Pat you have been stripped bare and hung out to dry by people posting the facts not the crap you are pushing.

 
At 06 January, 2007 19:26, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michael in MI said... "Granting their premise that the government was behind it, that would mean that the Clinton Administration was behind the original planning of 9-11 and then passed on all that info to the Bush Administration."

Good arguement but really we know that a Pesident is just a puppet for other interests basically the military, cia, fbi. etc. etc. are still the same,with a Dick Cheney and Rumsfel being invovled in some way with both.

 
At 06 January, 2007 19:32, Anonymous Anonymous said...

munchy10..said why?..... The building were 110 stories tall they were demolished not to fall in their own foot print (that would be impossible even in a legitimate case) but to come down completely as quickly as possible...hence the Shock and Awe.

 
At 06 January, 2007 19:46, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pat you state "they think they can get away with that?" speaking of Loose Change. What are you the Video Nazi?
They may not be completely accurate in what they present but the essence of wht they have put forward still holds true.

I must ask WHY THE VENDETTA AGAINST THEM....you know what they are presenting is pretty close to the mark don't you?

 
At 06 January, 2007 19:55, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ArlingtonWitness said Rumsfel was in his office at the Pentagon when it was struck so therefore he wasn;t in on it.....another Pea brain that doesn't do any research.

Had the (so called) Plane flown the shortest most direct route into the Pentagon as it came inro view Rumsfel's office may have been hit...but the plane ( http://justpaolo.blogspot.com/ another video check it out) did a 270 degree turn so it could hit the other side of the Pentagon but yes we don't know that do we.

 
At 20 January, 2007 18:24, Blogger batcave911 said...

im not a big loose change promoter, it leaves a lot to be desired, but their are lots of questions about 9/11.
bringing up O'Neil, it was his first day on the job at the WTC.
ANyone wanting to know more should read the next few links.
you have to read a lot to understand it all, you CANT just read 2 lines.
all this stuff is connected. it takes research.
READ READ READ !


Kroll + Assoc


Truth Lies Backdrop BCCI NYPD Wackenhut security Kroll


Jeb Bush

Bush Jr and Jeb sept 10 and 11




Richard A. Clarke, who joined the National Security Council under the first President Bush, and stayed there under Clinton.
It was Clarke who, together with John O'Neill, "discovered" bin Laden as a global terrorist mastermind. Here, as reported by Lawrence Wright in The New Yorker, was Clarke's version of his discovery:

"We'd [O'Neill and I] see CIA reports that referred to 'financier Osama bin Laden' and we'd ask ourselves, 'Who the hell is he?' The more we drilled down, the more we realized he was not just a financier - he was the leader. John said, 'We've got to get this guy. He's building a network. Everything leads back to him.' Gradually the CIA came along with us."

In the few months leading up to September 11, O'Neill - for the first time in his 30-year career with the FBI - would make the headlines in two separate scandals. The first, reported in July 2001, concerned O'Neill's dispute with Ambassador Barbara Bodine in Yemen, where O'Neill was reportedly pursuing al-Qaida links to the U.S.S. Cole bombing. As the story had it, O'Neill was too much the cowboy for Bodine's tastes, and so she summarily banned him from returning to Yemen. The second scandal, reported in August 2001, concerned a briefcase of classified documents that O'Neill had misplaced during a convention in Tampa.

Considering the resolution of the latter scandal - the documents were found, "untouched," a couple hours later - it seemed much ado about nothing. Yet in the light of O'Neill's subsequent death as head of security for the World Trade Center on September 11, the scandals began to take on a more suspicious tint. Was O'Neill digging too deep? A maverick who stepped on too many feet in his efforts to bulldog his way through the hierarchy? Put bluntly, had the maverick been taken down a notch by a bloated bureaucracy beholden to a "cover-your-ass" ethic? As Richard Clarke, Jerry Hauer, John Miller, Chris Isham, and O'Neill's friends/colleagues at Kroll Associates would spin it, O'Neill's was the lone voice shouting in the wilderness, warning all who would listen about the approaching bin Laden threat before falling himself, "ironically", at the hands of bin Laden.

truth lies flashback 9/11


On May 5th 2002, Jerome Hauer became director of the federal Office of Public Health Preparedness (OPHP), succeeding Dr. D. A. Henderson from Johns Hopkins Institute... ...Hauer is controversial among those who are able to connect the dots between his person and shady business deals in biopharmacy since 1998. More interesting, he seems to have had prior knowledge about both so called terrorist-attacks: September 11th and Anthrax. But many private investigators claim since months, he let the attacks happen on purpose to continue his career. Is Hauer Lihopsuspect No.1? He started to work for the NIH under Tommy Thompson on September 10, 2001 as an adviser on national security. On September 11th, he told the White House to take Cipro, the antibiotic that works against the anthrax virus, without bothering to reveal his warning to the American nation. http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/living/health/3020501.hym

The watchdog group JudicialWatch (->) decided to file a lawsuit against the NIH, the FBI, CDC and the White House, for the same reason: Prior Knowledge. It is not known how long Hauer worked at the NIH before Sept. 11, but we can confirm that he was working on Sept. 10. http://www.lauriegarrett.com/wtc_day12.html But things get really interesting when we consider that in August 2001, Jerome Hauer arranged a new job for ONeill,John - the resigning chief of the FBI Terror Task Force - as head of security at the World Trade Center. How did Hauer know that the Twin Towers would be so important? We would like to ask John O' Neill, but there is one problem: O'Neill died in the towers on September 11th, one day after he started his job officially, according to the New Yorker.


Jerome Hauer

This might have something to do with the FBI HQ (O'Neill complained about them), but also with Jerome Hauer - who is a friend of the current prime anthrax suspect, Stephen Hatfill, who was working for the military anthrax program USAMRIID at Fort Detrick and Battelle, a huge pharmacy company with many ties to the CIA. Hauer and Hatfill worked together at the SAIC's Center for Counterterrorism Technology and Analysis in 1999. The SAIC (Scientific Applications International Corp) later received a huge BioDefense budget in autumn 2001.
983, Hauer joined IBM where he was responsible for the company's Hazardous Materials Response and Crisis Management and Fire Safety programs. Hauer produced a series of hazardous materials training videos that earned him the International Film andTV Critics of New York Bronze award in 1986. In the early 1990s, Hauer got his first contacts to military and biodefense. Hauer received a master's degree in emergency medical services from the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health. Then he became member of the Johns Hopkins Working Group on Civilian Bio Defense, where he wrote various articles about a possible bioterrorist attack

In 1998, he started working at the OEM (Office for Emergency Management) in New York. In the same year, Hauer and anthrax suspect Hatfill both supported the CFR as experts in their respective fields. The Cfr is an acronym for Council on Foreign Relations, one of the most important think-tanks advising the US government, as well as many other governments abroad. CFR members include the Pentagon's top advisers, Richard Perle, Henry Kissinger, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, ex-CIA chief Woolsey,James, biosciences specialist Joshua Lederberg, and many others. (-->)

On May 28, 1998, Hatfill and Hauer spoke together at the same CFR meeting about "Building a 'Biobomb': Terrorist Challenge"

Hauer seems to specialize in the art of holding down several different jobs at the same time. While he started to work for the NIH in September 2001, he remained a Managing Director at Kroll Associates (->) - the official security and bodyguard company for all American presidents since World War II! With Hauer's many sources of insider information (e.g. Kroll/President bodyguards) , it makes sense that he knew about the CIA briefing for George Bush on August 6, 2001, about warnings of an imminent terrorist "attack with planes."


He left the FBI to move to credit card giant MBNA Corp. And Schiliro wasn't the only one. His close friend Louis Freeh - who was replaced in the FBI in August 2001 by Thomas Pickard as the acting head of the Bureau - started a new job as a Senior Vice Chairman at MBNA Corp in early September 2001 and began to collect shares. http://biz.yahoo.com/t/in/k/krb.html

The background of the MBNA (->) is very interesting. They helped the FBI in tracing the hijackers' credit card transactions, and had a lot of prominent helping hands. Among them was James Kallstrom, the former head of Special Operations, FBI. MBNA has a controversial status among civil right groups. Since 1996, MBNA CORP has unleashed various bulldozers, dump-trucks and explosives in a savage attack on the Ducktrap Deeryard (major coastal wildlife area on Penobscot Bay, Maine USA) or continued with "dull roar of corporate jet noise". Then, in April 2001, MBNA had to deal with check fraud. Involved was Intelligent Finance, a Halifax-backed Internet bank and a bogus account for a guy named Vindel. http://www.mbnasucks.org/kallstrom.html Interesting is the bio of another director of the MBNA Corporation: Bernadine P. Healy. She serves as a trustee of the Battelle Memorial Institute and is President and CEO of the American Red Cross. http://yahoo.marketguide.com/mgi/biograph.asp?rt=biograph&rn=5570N On May 10, 2001, a few months before Sept. 11, she testified on "human challenges that we will face during a WMD attack": http://www.slu.edu/colleges/sph/csbei/bioterrorism/official/congress.htm The Red Cross and the OEM under Jerome Hauer worked very closely together. Hauer's connections and insider information seem to be intriguing! He helped with the construction of the New York OEM headquarters known as "the bunker," on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. http://www.politicsny.com/reports/february02/2-14-02-sheirer.shtml The CIA later confirmed that they had an office in that building, next to the Department of Defense and the INS. For unknown reasons, 7 World Trade Center was the third skyscraper to collapse on Sept. 11. Officially, it began burning after debris from the Twin Tower collapses caused an illegal diesel-fuel tank inside the building to explode. The presence of this large gas tank - on the 23rd floor, too - with thousands of gallons of fuel far above ground, in violation of the fire code, was confirmed some weeks after Sept. 11th. There has never been an official verdict on the reasons for the collapse of WTC 7. A FEMA study failed to reach a clear conclusion: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch5.pdf While the collapse of WTC 7 remains a mystery, it cannot be said that the deaths caused by the bio-attack a couple of weeks later were similarly due to incompetence. On the contrary, Hauer had a huge team behind him, and had already warned the White House. Why didn't he leak all his information in time? In May 2000, the Johns Hopkins Center, in collaboration with the ANSER Institute for Homeland Defense, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and the Oklahoma Memorial Institute for the Study of Terrorism held a bioterrorism exercise at Andrews Air Force Base. Former Senator Sam Nunn played the President. David Gergen played the National Security Advisor. Governor Frank Keating played himself, Frank Wisner was Secretary of State, ex-CIA director Woolsey,James (ironically) played CIA Director, John White played Defense Secretary, and Dr. Margaret Hamburg was HHS Secretary. The Attorney General was played by George Terwilliger, William Sessions was FBI Director, and Jerome Hauer played FEMA Director. http://www.hopkins-biodefense.org/pages/library/fema.html "One of the striking observations of this exercise was the unfamiliarity of these distinguished and experienced professionals with the basic decisions and trade-offs associated with managing the response to the epidemic." Observing was Tara O'Toole, MD, MPH Senior Fellow, Center for Civilian Biodefense Studies and at that time Deputy Director of Johns Hopkins Institute. This started a series of different "war games." On June 22-23, 2001, the same crew organised their last big scenario before Sep11th. They called it DARK WINTER. It was about a possible smallpox attack. Hauer participated as well, this time "playing" the director of the FBI.

Hauer's connections to the CDC, Johns Hopkins and the CIA (James Woolsey) are well-established. What role did Jerome Hauer really play? Why was the distribution of Cipro to White House staff on Sept. 11 classified for such a long time (AP)? http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/bush_cipro.htm What exactly does Hauer know about Stephen Hatfill and his former USAMRIID colleague, Thomas Monath? What was his concern in organizing a security job for John O'Neill at the Twin Towers? What exactly did Hauer organise on Sep11th? Is it true that his office ordered thousands of employees "back to their desks" after the first plane hit, causing hundreds of unnecessary deaths?"

 
At 20 January, 2007 18:33, Blogger batcave911 said...

an interesting tidbit here, is that Oneils body was found in the WTC rubble.
Guess who found it ??
Jerome Hauer.
just a tad bit strange dont ya think ?
In all that mess, he finds one body, and it was John O'Neil.

also see...

Anthrax attacks

which are VERY related to this whole mess.
Hatfil was setup and this proves it.

 
At 24 April, 2007 08:33, Blogger Aaaden said...

This is my first time posting here on this blog about 9/11 issues.I was exposed to this whole mess about a year ago and since then I have seen alot of video and read countless articles on this subject. "Loose Change" was the first was the first video that I watched and it was an eye opener even if some of the evidence presented may have been clouded. I have seen debunker video and read those articles as well and I try to keep an even head when sifting thru all this material as it can drive a person mad. However,there are certain areas in which I cannot bring myself to subscibe to the official story of how things occured on that tragic day. WTC 7 in particular. I dont deny anyone the right to beleive in what ever version of the events of 9/11 makes them comfortable. I think this country s divided on many issues and this is a major one in my mind. The fallout for such a crime if proven to be an inside job would cripple this country and I think this is why so many people are passionate on both sides of the coin.

 
At 25 May, 2007 10:31, Blogger Simon said...

We've been lied to about Iraq. Why should we trust governments to tell us the truth about 9/11?

 
At 27 May, 2007 19:05, Blogger Matt said...

No one's saying you should believe the government. They're saying you should believe the hundreds of credible experts who rely on things like "facts" and "logic," which are apparently alien (or, at least, more flexible than a Romanian gymnast) to Truthers.

Paraphrasing the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, you're entitled to your own set of opinions, but not your own set of facts.

That said, the little bit of this website I've seen seems quite good--keep it up.

 
At 06 June, 2007 10:24, Blogger timr1271 said...

Did anyone ever stop to consider that the whole "Loose Change" thing is itself a conspiracy?

Think about it...
Dylan Avery and his cohorts started out to write a NOVEL about a government conspiracy resulting in 9/11. Avery then claims that while doing the research for the book, he became convinced that there really was some grand conspiracy.

Hello! Anyone ever hear of promoting a product?
Follow the logic for a second...
You have an idea for a book. In order to drum up support for the book, you publicly state that you've found shocking evidence to support what you originally thought would just be a novel. In this day and age of the internet and the importance of video on the internet, you make a video (something anyone with a PC and a little time can do!) highlighting your "shocking new evidence" in order to drum up interest in your book. The video gets out and some lazy idiots start believing the absurd claims you put in the video...and the video takes on a life of its' own and becomes a cult hit. Next thing you know, you've created an "industry" of questions and believers...

Sound familiar? Anyone remember "The DaVinci Code"? Novel written, stretching the truth...spawns a movie...book and movie become a cult hit...and create an entire "industry" of questions and believers...

More comparisons...
Who in the US (or world for that matter) isn't familiar with Jesus Christ? Jesus is a MAJOR figure in US and world history. Jesus is also a very polarizing figure.
Who in the US isn't familiar with what happened on 9/11? 9/11 is a MAJOR event in US and world history.

Yes, there is a conspiracy regarding 9/11. It is a conspiracy led by the likes of Dylan Avery. It is a conspiracy to show how completely gullible people really are...

Wake up and stop being such blind sheep!
Or...maybe you like being bamboozled...

 
At 04 August, 2007 02:06, Blogger Antony said...

Ok, just a few things to point out that i have seen throughout the post here..

1. "Untouched Spools"- now i work around these same type of spools everyday, and from the looks of them, they look like any spool that you would find banged up by regular use of getting them in and out of the transport unit. a spool on its side like it is can easily be pushed over by a child around the age of 10-12...now with that said, had an airplane impacted on the ground near the spools.. the likely hood of them falling down is good. but with an airplane blowing-up to the point where there is little to no evidence of an airplane, would have to have a blast so incrediable that those spools would have fallen to the ground. I seriously dobut that they were stood upright after the supposed impact of this airplane.

2. i see a lot of sarcasm in these post aswell, i would think that those trying to debunk loose change would surely go about it in a more mature manner as to not seem like the creaters of the movie they are debunking (aka: "being the better man")

3. As i do not believe anybody here has a security clearence that allows them to top secret documents that would bring the real truth to light. so fishing for answers in the world of our goverment that lies to begin with will be extremely diffcult wouldnt you think. Though sometimes things are so obvious that they are over looked. which brings me to my next point...

4. The "new pearl harbor"; seeing the evidence given in the documents about stating acts of sabotage against our own country are right there in front of you. You may want to nitpick on the use of this plan.. but the fact is that it was a plan! do your plans ever change? hell... mine do all the time.. and im not even planning something big.

5.And here is one last point that i didnt see anybody talk about... The hijackers... Alive or dead? cause according to news sources and recent photographs that 5 of these terrorist have been located and seen reguarly.. while our government tells us they are dead... what did the hijackers do?? jump out of a plane at near top speeds or even half speed would tear a man apart.. if you do not believe.. debunk this and try it for yourself. So if the hijackers are still alive.. then who died on the plane.. who was in there??
I dont believe that terrorist did this, i believe that the relations between the Bush family and the bin laden family, and the relations between the bush family coporate legacy are too close to ignore. everything from investing in a major civil defense company before 9/11 to "misinformation in Iraq" (to secure oil fields), to private funding from the bin laden family to the corporations headed by Bush senior or bush junior.

I think we need more people like those that created loose change.. i can take misinformation and not call it a lie, i can take misinformation and call it a lie. Now the hard part comes in.. Why do you think it is a lie?? or Why do you think it was just misinformation. wel... let me answer that for you.. I know we have all told stories, and when you tell stories sometimes you use the wrong words or you say things in haste, or you even tend to overlook things yourself,(as the creators of this blog have done themselves). we all make mistakes, if something is not absolute fact (which things rarely are "the earth is flat")that does not mean there is not truth with in it. Big picture. small picture.. doesnt matter.. its all about where your focus is on the picture and work your way slowly across every detail.. for instance, Jesus was not a white man, but if you look at most churches around the world you will see him depicted as blonde hair and blue eyes... NOw one person will see this picture and call it a lie.. where another person see that is jesus, cause it is not the image, it is the intent of the image itself..

you all take care of yourselves. but i hope you all will just understand that governments lie cause they are made up of man and woman.

 
At 11 August, 2007 05:26, Blogger dcorner said...

Quoting from the top of the page:

"It's the easiest to understand lies, in one case a lie that can be refuted by looking at the film itself."

I am looking at the film itself. It is discussing some serious questions about how a commercial airliner can disappear in a 6 square feet hole (or was it 10 square feet or 30?). I am looking at an undamaged lawn and for all practible purposes UNDAMAGED spools. What lie am I not getting?

 
At 20 August, 2007 21:54, Blogger badger27 said...

Anybody who says that the buildings collapsed "into their own footprints" is an idiot.

First of all, you can see chunks of rubble falling from the building as they collapse in the videos. If you can see them on the video they are fairly substantial pieces that will cause substantial damage to whatever they strike when they reach the ground, including WTC 7.

Even a small bit of lateral velocity from that high up translates into a large lateral translation at ground level. So simple physics and your own eyes debunk that stupid canard.

Second, anybody who can draw a free body diagram or do a simple force balance knows that the buildings fell essentially straight down (but obviously not entirely "into their own footprints" as shown simply above) is because the only force acting on the buildings was gravity. There was no lateral force to make the buildings fall any other way than straight down.

Frankly I can not understand how anybody could be stupid enough to believe this idiocy.

 
At 26 August, 2007 07:46, Blogger Richard M. said...

asking questions is a good thing if they are good questions. and a good reporter contects the dots they do not leave them blank.

lets see how do i explain this, anybody who has been around any demo work knows that an explotion radiates out in a sphere if and i empisise if. it is not impeaded by soemthing and it does not take alot of mass to chance the engery of an exption, you see it all the time something right next to it's origin is left unscathed and something 10 feet away is distroied it looks like it's magic or something but it's just how it works once you start realising how it does work sometimes you can work out in your mind what went on.a weak wall can defect the energy of an exption up away from something sitting on the otherside of it. without knowing where they wear to start with you can't say they wear not moved even

i guess what i'm trying to say is claiming that spools that have 4 inches of foam covering them are undamaged and untouched is a bit silly.

i do find it ammassing that people love to ignore parts all over the place as thre not being any engines or wing or whatever. even in low speed plain wreacks the wing have a tendancy to fld back along the fusalage bump that speed up to 500 mph and they really have no place to go but into the same hole the fussalage went into.

if you want to belive that 9/11 was anything more than what it was then you have to give the proof to back you accuations not the other way around. when you do run into something it is odd or harder to explain it's not proof your right 99%(this number is probably higher but i'm being polite)of the things used to back this conspercy are very easly explained or are out right lies i'm sorry.
the two crash sights way from the WTC are littered with debris.it's one of the reasons you keep seeing the same group of photos on all the diffent consericasy sights. you can show all the photos becouse then people will see all the junk

if you have watched mythbusters you know if you get enough straws you can make a wind tunnel all that is need now is a heat souce becouse all the conspiracy sight's use is the same hot air

 
At 29 August, 2007 01:40, Blogger Scott Rutledge said...

I don't really agree with a lot of your "debunking", but I do acknowledge that you have pointed out some inconsistencies, and even exagerations that the filmakers used to express their theory more dramatically.

On the point of Osamas ring, I have no concrete opinion. But in relation to the wearing of Gold, and nesnyc comments about good ole tim osman, I do recall lots of pictures of less devout muslims, and even guys like achmed chalabi wearing gold rolexes and the like.

Osamas ring may not be gold. I don't know enough about Islam to say that they aren't allowed to wear rings at all. But "Osamas" ring to me seems to be a representation of the stone in the side of the cube in mecca that the muslims circle during their pilgrimmage.

Just a thought.

 
At 10 September, 2007 09:10, Blogger stonesean said...

Dear Niagra guy....

Please come to the Pentagon and I will buy you lunch.

I work for the Joint Staff and can show you with glee that the Pentagon is directly on the flight path of National Airport. An airliner would not be out of place in any way shape or form over the skies of the Pentagon. Just how "heavily guarded" do you think this building is? Despite your fanciful imaginings, there are no surface to air missle batteries lurking below sliding panels on the roof or any such things....open invitiation to anyone who wants to come...I take lunch at 11:30 on most days and will gladly show you just how wrong "loose change" is about almost everything. Of course, as a 14 year veteran of the Navy, I am surely a tool of the conspiracy machine. Hell, I might even be in on it myself...mwah ha ha....

 
At 25 September, 2007 16:05, Blogger ritamaebelle said...

On 9/11 I was at work when the news came down that a plane had hit the WTC. In another short time, more news...another plane. Those of us who wished could take the rest of the day off, because it became apparent that not much work would be done. I spent the entire day watching the events on several news channels.
I looked at the small hole in the pentagon as showed by several channels, and I wondered how a commercial jet could have gone into it leaving practically no pieces outside.
I saw the secondary "explosions" of the WTC as shown on several news channels...and it made me wonder.
When the buildings fell essentially straight down, I wondered.
When there was no plane in Shanksville, no fire, no smoke...I wondered.
When the third bldg (unhit by a plane) fell essentially straight down...I wondered.
I was watching all the major networks coverage to see everything I could see.
LC is asking the same questions that are still unanwered for me.
I don't think name calling solves anything.
I'm still wondering about the same things today that I saw and wondered about on 9/11.
No one is giving answers.

 
At 03 October, 2007 09:36, Blogger badger27 said...

ritamaebelle -

You said no one is giving answers, but the fact is that answers for all your questions are readily available to anybody who is willing to spend the few minutes it takes to find them. You either choose not to believe the experts that have debunked all the claims you make in favor of believing the conspiracy theorists, or you have not even bothered to do any research on the subject.

What amazes me is why people with such an obvious ignorance of physics (Why did the towers fall straight down? Because the only force acting on them was gravity!) think they know more than the people who are considered experts by their peers know.

 
At 05 October, 2007 13:48, Blogger Darin said...

I can hardly believe I'm doing this, because I think so many of the claims and conjectures are so completely absurd that they don't even deserve to be addressed seriously, but I am. The idea that Larry Silverstein gave the order to “pull it” on WTC7 is just preposterous. If this had all been planned out in advance and the building rigged with explosives, why in God’s name would he NEED to give an order to pull it? The order had already been given.

And as for something other than a plane hitting the Pentagon, again, if “they” could use planes to hit the World Trade Center, why would they use something else to hit the Pentagon? It makes absolutely no sense. But then, none of it does. It’s like a religion. You believe it no matter how irrational it is.

 
At 19 October, 2007 12:26, Blogger jerry said...

You idiot, left out the generator
(too far) from where "the airplane" hit the pentagon.....
IMBECILE.

 
At 06 January, 2008 16:16, Blogger Intelligent US Citizen said...

All I have to say is that if all of you who believe in this conspiracy theory, then why haven't you moved to a country that would not do such terrible things to it's citizens. If you really believe this whole "Loose Change" blarney, then I find you frightening because you are so paranoid... Aren't you afraid this same corrupt government that kills its own citizens for its own gain and "pulls the wool over our eyes" at every opportunity, will try to eliminate all of you who "have figured them out?" I would run, not walk, to the nearest airport and get the heck out before they find you, if I were you... Oh, and don't come back EVER!!! People like you are scary!!!

 
At 03 February, 2008 02:09, Blogger D said...

Is this the blind leading the blind? There is one disturbing fact here that everyone seems happy to accept. Fire brought down the world trade centers in less than 30 mins! Come on people. Wake up and smell the coffee/explosives. Why take anyone’s word on it these days when everyone seems to have their own agenda. Be smart about this. Figure it out for yourselves. Science, Math and history proves it is not possible for these mega structures to collapse completely under fire conditions in the 30 min timeframe. Even with the jet crash impact and with jet fuel burning. Do the Math. Ok not a math guru? Then use your common sense. Google any major structural fire in history. (Especially those that involve airplanes crashing into buildings) Can you find any where such devastation is possible by fire in 30 mins or even any that are burning for less than 10-20 hours. And let’s not forget. The structures in question where built to withstand major weather conditions, bombing, fire and even planes crashing into them... Take a look at the pentagon crash. It may have been built with higher specification grade materials than the trade centers, but the damage is minimal in comparison to the trade centers that suffered the exact same attacks. Both where supposedly hit with the same class of commercial airliners. My only question about all of this is why are american troops at war with countries that have no links/direct connections to 9/11.
These troops are dying under the pretence that they are settling the debt for victims of 9/11.

 
At 11 February, 2008 01:22, Blogger Levon Parian said...

If we think in terms of statistics, what are the odds that two identical buildings hit in similar ways by airplanes would fall in an identical manner? Why do they fall in the same way? Wouldn't you expect some variation in the way they would fall (one at one angle, another maybe would only fall halfway?)

What I find hard to explain is how two seperate incidents could be so identical. Afterall, the buildings were standing seperately on their own.

Oh and yes what about building #7? How does that fall in a similar manner as two buildings hit by planes? I think that "d" hits it on the nail (previous blogger).

 
At 06 March, 2008 07:36, Blogger Medici said...

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BTW: Showers anyone?

 
At 13 March, 2008 09:22, Blogger ian said...

"why would the creators of Loose Change go through so much trouble to try to uncover something if there was absolutely no truth about it, as the creator of this Blog, has said?"

This is a good demonstration of one reason why people believe stupid things. Rather than questioning the information, they question the credibility of who's telling them the information, as though people are never misinformed or wrong about anything.

Did it occur to you that maybe the Loose Change guys sincerely believe the bullshit they're spreading?

As has been demonstrated over and over with all kinds of pseudosciences, and strange, stupid theories. I think one of the other main reasons people fall for these things is because they haven't spent much time learning about different strange theories and beliefs. Scientologists will tell you that L Ron Hubbard was a brilliant scientist who invented a wonderful technology that can increase your IQ and give you perfect memory, amongst other wonderful abilities. Scientology, in fact, is really a bunch of made up nonsense.

Why do people believe it and think it's scientific? Because they don't know the difference between actual scientific experiments and research, and stuff that sounds sciency.

If an intelligent and dedicated person strongly believes that there's something to find, hidden in a big pile of information, they'll find lots, whether it's really there or not. Why do you think there are so many detailed and complicated interpretations of the bible? There are tons of people who think there are hidden codes with prophetic information, and when they spend enough time, they'll come up with something.

When I was 14, I was given a test in math class where in one section we had to do a "Finish the pattern" kind of thing. Like "2, 4, 6, __, __". Well, one of the questions was something like:
"M, T, W, T, F, __, __". Well, I assigned the letters to numbers, and came up with a very complex, but working formula, and answered the question something like this: "M, T, W, T, F, L, R". Turned out it was actually the days of the week.

My pattern was actually there, for the first 5 letters, but it was completely made up by me. It had nothing to do with the actual answer.

Some idiot presents a bunch of scientific sounding explanations for why the buildings HAD to have been detonated internally, and it looks the same to them as the actual scientific things they've read. Do some research, and you'll find that a lot of the things they claim to be "impossible" aren't. Or they get one scientist (sometimes not even in a related field!) or maybe someone who cleans the house of some kind of expert to back them up... nevermind that 99% of people who are actually informed on the topic would disagree.

There are plenty of sites out there with information from ACTUAL experts that refute the silly 9/11 conspiracies.

Bringing up things like the Reichstag is completely immaterial. We're not debating whether or not its possible for anyone to commit acts of violence and try to blame it on someone else. Just because something vaguely similar to your conspiracy theory has happened in the past, it doesn't validate what you're trying to argue now.

Take ALL the information available. Nobody is going to argue that the CIA wasn't involved in training Osama in the 80's. But maybe you should actually read a bit about that particular war. The CIA supplied him and trained him because he was fighting the Russians. It was part of the cold war. And he accepted their training and weapons not because he liked them, or agreed with them. He probably still thought they were evil imperialists, he just had no problem with taking advantage of their supplies.

Another problem is people take evidence for one little aspect of the conspiracy to validate the whole thing. For example, showing that an influential neocon group discussed the potential for another "Pearl Harbour" to be politically useful. I think it's far more likely that they may have inadequately investigated Al Qaeda, hoping that they might mount a somewhat successful attack in the US. But they may have been imagining something only slightly more successful than the 1992 WTC bombing. If this were the case, it would be stupid, cruel, greedy, and downright evil, but completely different from actually plotting the 9/11 attacks.

When I read the so called scientific questions people have regarding the 9/11 attacks, I get the same feeling I got when I was working tech support, and someone called in and said "I know for sure that someone's hacked into my computer, it's not working properly." It usually turned out they'd done something like forgotten their password... or had their powerbar switched off. I love how people think they can be expert air crash analyzers, with a few photographs, and zero related experience. Funny how airplane crash experts aren't the ones making these claims, ain't it?

 
At 24 April, 2008 00:54, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

The bu$h/cheney usurpation (et al) http://groups.msn.com/impeachbushcheneyusurpation/voterfraudvoting.msnw http://groups.msn.com/impeachbushcheneyusurpation/voterfraudatthedoj.msnw
is following the SAME playbook as hitler 9/11 = Reichstag fire BOTH INSIDE JOBS SAME ATTACKS ON RIGHTS & FREEDOMS ILLEGAL WAR$ of AGGRE$$ION BA$ED ON LIE$ & GREED.
OBL (osama bin forgotten) has been VERY dead since 2001, admitting that is what got Bhutto assassinated http://groups.msn.com/impeachbushcheneyusurpation/thenonsearchforbinlauden.msnw
You want an ACCURATE OBL QUOTE: Bin Laden tapes are as phony as Sept. 11's connection to Islam Fake bin Laden tapes, "verified" by the CIA, are nothing new. Every supposed bin Laden statement since 2001 has been blatantly bogus.

The last we heard from the real bin Laden came in his post-9/11 statements to Pakistani journalists:

"I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation. ...

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. ...

"I had no knowledge of these attacks." http://www.unknownnews.org/060214a-Barrett.html
The clinton CRIME FAMILY was the set-up for the bu$h/cheney usurpation & are buddy buddy with daddy bu$h (of the bu$h CRIME FAMILY) http://groups.msn.com/impeachbushcheneyusurpation/buhcrimefamilyresumedynastyofdeath.msnw

that the planes were diverted to Air Force bases and replaced with drones.
BOTH of the WTC planes crossed paths (were switched) at Stewart intl airport, where stragely enough, the SAME air traffic controller was working that worked flt 800.
The most compelling evidence I saw in the movie was that the engines don't seem to be anywhere in sight. I believe the propagandists of the usurpation's "official conspiracy theory"(i.e. LIES) said they were VAPORIZED in a fire so hot it left enough FLESH to identify the majority of the passengers (don't ignore the saracasm). BTW: check out: http://groups.msn.com/impeachbushcheneyusurpation/911pentagonsmagicbullettheory1.msnw
To sum it up tho, I agree with This blog is such BS that I need a shovel to dig my way out of it.

Want to know what the "fed"/M.I.C./chickenhawks of israel backed bu$h/cheney usurpation (et al) is up to with future hitler styled attacks on America?
http://groups.msn.com/impeachbushcheneyusurpation/usurpationsattacksonourfreedoms.msnw

 
At 24 April, 2008 01:01, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

JoeZeppi said...
if anyone is looking for anymore evidence debunking the 9/11 conspiracy theories you might want to check out this article by Popular Mechanics:
PFFFT load of crap, wasn't even WRITTEN by "popular mechanics" it is esentially a propagandist of the 9/11 LIE press release.
I find the following site MUCH more FACTUAL:
Reply to Popular Mechanics re 9/11: http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm

 
At 24 April, 2008 01:05, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

Paradigm Buster proves it's (his/her) ignorence of dov Zakheim

rumsfelds reoprts 2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS "MISSING" from the pentagon on 9/10/01 and the very next day the majority of the accounts & investigators that uncovered the "missing TRILLIONS are TARGETED/KILLED at the pentagon. http://groups.msn.com/impeachbushcheneyusurpation/ 911wheretheplanescamefromampmissingtrillions.msnw

 
At 24 April, 2008 01:08, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

niagara guy said...
One indisputable fact: 35 minutes after the SECOND plane hit the WTC, "some kind of aircraft" was able to reach and strike the Pentagon, the most heavily defended building on earth. How is that possible if it wasn't an inside job?
According to rumsfelds QUOTE "SUCH AS THE MISSILE THAT HIT THIS BUILDING" (THE PENTAGON) UNQUOTE

 
At 24 April, 2008 01:13, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

Oh lets not forget the 16 ft hole through 3 rings and no plane wreckage.

ACTUALLY, I HAVE SEEN ZERO EVIDENCE OF CONNECTION OF DAMAGE FROM E RING TO INNER C RING
CHECK OUT THESE PHOTOS
http://groups.msn.com/911wasaninsidejob/
pentagons911magicbullettheory.msnw

 
At 24 April, 2008 01:17, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

The interviews they did and sources they sited tended to be with & from people who have no expertise in the field they are being asked about.

GOOGLE ae9/11truth
pilots for 9/11 truth
pandora's black box
patriots for 9/11 truth
you want some experts

 
At 24 April, 2008 01:28, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

Splash Two is an IDIOT
When everything is a conspiracy...nothing is a conspiracy.
Did you come up with that when mommy was changing your diapers?
A group of pilots examined the black box alledgedly found at the pentagon to discover the alt was 408 ft at impact.
Flt 93 was landed at hopkins intl airport and unloaded due to a bomb threat. NOTHING is know of the whereabouts of the passengers after that.
They show people saying "explosion" over and over again as if all explosions come from bombs.And there's no way that a plane, fully laden with fuel, flying into a building would ever cause secondary, or tertiary explosions!

There is TESTIMONY about "EXPLOSIONS" BEFORE, DURING, & AFTER THE IMPACTS. ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY THAT THE IMPACT(S) WOULD CAUSE EXPLOSIONS BEFORE THE IMPACT?

Plus, the towers came down from the floors where the planes hit. So were their explosives planted on those floors?
The north tower exploded UPWARDS faster than it could fall. It's also possible that the aircraft were homing in on a beacon i.e. they KNEW WHERE it would impact.

all in all
al-cia-DUH!

 
At 24 April, 2008 01:45, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

click on my user name and check out the Usurper bu$h quote (audio clip)

 
At 19 June, 2008 05:26, Blogger Alan Glass said...

So I like to think I'm fairly impartial and I've seen loose change a couple of times...

So when I see your site and your "Three Easily Understood Lies In Loose Change" post I think "Oooooh! Let's see what massive hole you've poked in the 9//11 theories..."

I'm thinking maybe you've found a way to explain how the towers fell at freefall speed without internal explosives. Or maybe how 2 whole jet liners vaporised in crashes on the same day. Or telling me why the FBI won't release ANY credible footage of the "plane" hitting the pentagon...

But no, you choose spools, gold rings and Marvin Bush.

If you're gonna convince me that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are all bullshit then you might want to try picking some bigger issues mate!

Back to the drawing board sunshine!

 
At 03 July, 2008 16:20, Blogger MannyMayhem said...

@Alan Glass: You claiming to be impartial is a total joke, let's be honest.

Towers falling at free falls speed has be debunked by (credible) physicists more times than need be addressed again same with 'vaporized' jets.

Re: the footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon: Why on earth would the government release tape of an attack that is a proven way of taking out the Pentagon (i.e. the heart of the nation's security) You can't be that daft can you? I mean it's comparable to leaving your home alarm security code on a piece of paper tacked to your front door. Don't be an idiot.

Oh and as far as providing proof conspiracies are fake, since when is it incumbent on the one not making the accusations to prove the other person wrong? It's the job of the 'troofers' to provide definitive and irrefutable evidence (which they haven't even come close to) to make their case. Once they do that, then, and only then is it up to the other side (read: sane people) to debunk that.

This is basically the same thing you are doing: you are a pedophile who is in cahoots with Iran and rape 30 women a week before cutting their heads off and drinking their blood. Prove me wrong. I don't have to provide proof since I made the accusation with no definitive irrefutable eveidence. Prove to all of use you are NOT a bloodrunk, pederast, raping, traitorous murderer.
That's how it works right?

 
At 03 July, 2008 21:32, Blogger ImpeachUsurpation said...

MannyMayhem,
The crazy traitors defend the undefendable official LIE.
Trying to compare your outragous lies with proven FACTS & thinking that illogic has any merit shows how insane you are.

Towers falling at free falls speed has be(en?) debunked by (UN-credible) physicists more times than need be addressed

Some traitors will sell out their "credentials" for a buck & ANY person claiming to be a physicist that supports the official lie is a LIAR too.

again same with 'vaporized' jets.

Give us a break, Steel & tiatanium "vaporizes" yet enough flesh remains to identify 180 people & a book sitting mere yards away is untouched?
How stupid would anyone have to be to actually believe that crap?
The answer is of course, as stupid as YOU ARE.

 
At 07 August, 2008 11:05, Blogger GovtFlu said...

It's obvious by the "screw loose change" title alone this isn't an objective take. A-lot of people simply refuse to believe that rouge elements inside the .gov could do such a thing, despite all the false flag incidents in history. People think it can't happen here, and from that premise reject evidence no matter how compelling.

Bush / Cheney have since suggested at least two more follow up false flag incidents; painting a spy plane in US colors to provoke Saddam, and using Seals in falsely flagged Iranian PT boats to exchange fire with US ships. If anything, it shows Bush / Cheney have false flag on the mind (since the first one on 9/11 worked out for them?)which should cause any reasonable person to think twice about, and re-evaluate, 9/11.

 
At 09 November, 2008 01:03, Blogger Imran Siddiqui said...

nesync you know nothing about usama bin laden to understand him you have to be a muslim i have never met a non muslim who has truely understood him or even seen ONE of his videos in full (whether its jihad training or speeches etc) he has never worked for the cia why dont you read articles from people who have MET him namely robert fisk who had nothing but praise for his character. The US never trained any one to fight against russia or in bosnia why dont you look it up people who dont know about islam and its history dont know anything about their people whether its mujahideen or usama bin laden.

Sheikh ibn Baz (may Allah have mercy on him) passed a fatwa as the grand mufti of saudi arabia that fighting in afghanistan and bosnia is COMPULSORY on all muslims. Thus the bravest of the brave sacrificed their lives for the protection of their brothers and sisters from the hands of the soviets. It was MUSLIMS that went to afghanistan not CIA operatives. Any non muslim who wants to call al-Qaeda al-CIA-duh knows nothing about the organization except for what their little politics and terrorism course in college taught them. And thats not saying much. You want to know about al-Qaeda ask MUSLIMS WHO KNOW. You want to know about al-Qaeda ask the people who went and fought and were on the front line. ask them did america trian you and give you guns and money?? the answer will be no.
Why does aQ need money? bin laden came from a rich family. if they supplied weapons then where are these weapons? why are they using large inaccurate AK-47's when they could be using compact M16's and M4s? if america trained them why are there so many training camps in afghanistan? as a pakistani i KNOW what a training camp is and where they are as pakistan was rife with camps as well as in afghanistan. if you want more information from reliable sources rather than people who dont know anything about the mind of muslims or the reasons behind such attacks as 9-11 then feel free to contact me.

 
At 14 November, 2008 16:41, Blogger thnkfstpal said...

Was there a Forensic investigation of 9/11? if not why? and if so what did it say?

 
At 18 December, 2008 09:15, Blogger ThadySENior said...

I'm a random uneducated british person who has not done any proper research.
I accidentally came across this entire website by complete chance, awaiting to hear a comment by George Bush i also accidentally heard on Youtube in which (through the slip of a tongue or not) he directly says that ' those behind the attacks' placed explosives in the upper part of the north so that the people inside the building could not escape.

Once again i strongly state that i am totaly ignorant towards everything to do with these events, but if an idiot like me can find such 'evidence' then why exactly do these conspiracy theorists have such a hard time and instead speculate on their lack of knowledge concerning physics and behaviour of elements?

please do look this up on youtube 'george bush talks about explosives in world trade center'

 
At 19 February, 2009 14:02, Blogger G said...

I am sure the government has not devulged the complete truth and I am sure there are many discrepancies in Loose Change as well as the 911 report. What I don't understand is why all of the people believing the conspiracy theory wish to live in a country that they feel is filled with tyranny and a literal threat to their lives. If I felt that completely and utterly threatened, I'm thinking I would move to another country where I wouldn't have to live my life looking over my shoulder, waiting for the government to squash me like a bug.

 
At 09 July, 2009 19:32, Blogger huyuni said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 14 September, 2009 01:25, Blogger poston said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 19 December, 2009 23:49, Blogger Mike said...

first - let people watch loose change and the annotated version and decide for themselves.

second - I love your that your proof of lies is "I just don't buy it."

It's elementary my dear Watson - bring some facts to the table here buddy, and people would listen - until then keep trying to scare everyone.

 
At 22 December, 2009 18:09, Blogger crazyloko said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 09 January, 2010 15:13, Anonymous DroopyMcCool said...

Nice to see all of my previous posters biting each others heads off, but please don´t state you would have more brain than others.

There is information on the net which should be considered and LC is a nice try to stir up questions, nothing more. A nice site which shows all the flaws in LC is here: http://emptv.com/research/loose-change

the TRUTH lies somewhere between it,

DON`T believe what others want you to believe, make up your own minds.

 
At 23 January, 2010 10:08, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have seen enough evidence on MULTIPLE sites and have come to KNOW>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 911 is a conspiracy..............our leaders are the TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO DOUBT IN MY MIND>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do your research and search your feelings...........The BIBLE PREDICTS THIS STUFF.........BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!!!.....AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!

 
At 19 February, 2010 23:26, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please, on point 6 - the 'truth' calim is that there were bodies found at the Pentagon - your source link doesn't seem to address this - the pictures show only what is tagged as the debris from the "plane" that some individuals are carrying pieces of with one or two hands. Where are the bodies please?

 
At 05 May, 2010 23:40, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry if anything I post has already been mentioned; I failed to bother reading more than ten posts. That being said, my main thing with the film is that it brings up some things that I believe should probably be questioned, and possibly investigated further. At the same time, some of the theories in this film I find ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS. For instance, in the first loose change film, I remember it being insinuated that a missile had possibly hit the Pentagon; and then in the newer film, it was further suggested. I lived 15 minutes from the Pentagon during the attack; my father worked even closer than that, and was at work during the attack. Knowing the terrain of that particular area (especially knowing that I-395 faces the particular area of the Pentagon that was hit and is at a very close proximity to that area) and hearing personal accounts from people that actually saw the plane smash into the building, I think the missile theory is the most ridiculous part of this whole 9-11 truth movement. I-395 is an extremely busy stretch of freeway, especially at the time of the attacks. I would like to add, and I may be wrong in this, but I believe that D.C. has the second biggest traffic problem in the U.S. only after Los Angeles. Regardless, I-395 was busy, and probably quite congested during the attack on the Pentagon. I know for a fact that people on the streets that day actually saw a plane fly into the Pentagon. I don't denounce any of the evidence that loose change provides, but neither do I search for evidence on the contrary. I do, however, agree that there were, and are, some very curious situations surrounding the events on that particular day that should be given attention and further investigation. I am not one that prescribes to the false flag theories put forth by the producers of Loose Change. In fact, I may be a bigger sceptic and true believer in conspiracy theories, as I don't necessarily see a reason why a group of Uber Powerful Elitists would feel the need to perform such an action to gain the national support for an unjust war. I think such a goal could be MUCH MORE easily obtained and has been, in history, much more easily produced. But, regardless of all this, motive should be put aside and the evidence should be evaluated, both by professionals and their opponents.

 
At 18 May, 2010 13:26, Anonymous Anonymous said...

your never going to face it,that something from some very,very high people in and out of goverment helped pull this off!

 
At 22 May, 2010 08:50, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think what people need to focus on more, is the engineers and architects who say it was highly unlikely that the towers fell from just the plane crash. The free fall speed of the towers. Isn't it weird how there was no collateral damage outside the three towers being destroyed. You would think terrorists would want the tower to fall to its side, and annihilate part of lower Manhattan. I want to see a group of PHDs in Engineering discuss this.

 
At 06 August, 2010 07:53, Blogger drew said...

What boggles my mind is that some many people think that our government wouldn't possibly kill it's own people just to go to war and kill more... When not just by the Bush administration but by several others... WW 1... the sinking of the Lucitania... The Lucitania was a passanger vessel that was PURPOSELY sent into known German Uboat occupied territory... WW 2... Pearl Harbor... The administration at that time PROVOKED Japan to attack by placing tarrifs and embargos and shit like that on all Japanesse imports as well as no longer supporting them with oil and other goods and in turn selling them to the Chinese who wear swarn enemies at that time... Not to mention there were numerous reports sent out by Australia and other islands in the south Pacific warning us of a Japanesse fleet headin towards Pearl Harbor... Vietnam... We were "enticed" into vietnam by the sinking of a battle ship off the cost of Vietnam... This has been revealed by the government... YES THAT'S THE US GOVERNMENT... to have been completely false... and that the goal of the Vietnam war was never to win the war... just sustain it... and for any of you wondering where I get my sorces... you can either do the investigating on your own or just watch Zeitgiest 1 and Zeitgiest Addendum... that will tell you all you need to know about how our government really works... It's very similar to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy... "The role of the President isn't to wield and real power but, to distract away from it."...

 
At 06 August, 2010 08:12, Blogger Pat said...

Drew, your history education leaves something to be desired. The USA did enter WWI after the sinking of the Lusitania, but it was TWO YEARS after, so it's a little silly to claim that was what got us into the war. We did not get into Vietnam via the sinking of a battleship; the Gulf of Tonkin incident at most involved a US ship being fired upon, not sunk. WWII? Look up the rape of Nanking to get an idea of why we supported the Chinese over the Japanese.

And the Zeitgeist movies were a joke; in the first edition of the original film, Peter Joseph pronounced "Colonel" as "Cologne-El"; of course it's "Kernel" to those who know anything about the military.

 
At 24 August, 2010 21:45, Blogger Rick Fisk said...

"You ask this and yet it doesn't occur to you to ask why would your government go to all this trouble to kill it's own citizens and then be so sloppy as to let a bunch of dipshit idiots figure it out and then expose them"

This is yet another logical fallacy being passed off as serious debate.

People always come to the erroneous conclusion that inside job = thousands of accomplices = government.

If an employee of a bank, acted in concert with somebody who didn't work there to pull of a robbery, would it be appropriate to say that the bank was the culprit?

No.

Furthermore, we live in a society where it is not politically correct at all to question government. In fact, in the case of the Kennedy assassination, it is so abhorrent, the government has locked away all of the Warren Commission's evidence and deliberations in a vault so nobody can decide for themselves.

It didn't take a great deal of people to pull this off. Only a small number of planners and thousands of confused and willing, but unknowing accomplices who were merely trying to do their jobs that day. A military that followed whatever orders were given without question and left to its own devices to perform the CYA without any knowledge of how they were used as pawns.

For instance the NORAD failure. The commanders don't know why Dick Cheney ordered fighters out of the area. They just did as they were told and when asked later, did what they could to explain the situation as they knew it. No lie required.

The motivation for the event may not have been geopolitical at all. It may have totally been monetary.

Congress was perfectly willing to pass the Patriot act and other nonsense in order to increase government power and would have done so conspiracy or not.

Larry Silversteinn was the real benefactor. A building that he didn't even own was destroyed and he was able to make millions from an insurance settlement.

In spite of the fact that he openly states that he "pulled" wt7 and had actually asked his insurance company if it would be OK if he destroyed the building, dumbshits like yourself are still claiming that there's no possible way that WTC7 was a controlled demolition.

Who cares if some small number of thinking individuals can see that it's a fraud? The rest of the population and the media is completely willing to ignore and deny what is obvious to anyone who has watched video of the event. 9/11 is not the first event of this kind.

The conspirators DON'T CARE if anyone "finds out" because it DOESN'T MATTER. Nobody ELSE gives a fuck as long as their iPod is working and the McDonald's on the corner is open 24 hours.

 
At 27 August, 2010 20:19, Blogger DUTCH said...

If only we can get a Jack Nicholson to yell at a Tom Cruise "You can't handle the truth", then the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth will be out.

I vote for loose change simply because there are more questions than answers.

Joe, Singapore

 
At 10 September, 2010 20:24, Blogger Amy said...

All these conspiracy theories are crazy! Get your head out of your ass and be proud to be an American. The very people that you are disrespecting are fighting for your right to be free speech douche bags!

 
At 13 September, 2010 23:47, OpenID id said...

You are doing a very bad, bad job of defending your case against Loose Change.

 
At 05 January, 2011 11:13, Blogger C said...

As for the Pentagon: I would ask people to go and "see" the actual building itself: I am from DC and I see it out the plane window EVERY TIME I fly to or from the city in a passenger jet....that's right, there's a major-airport right next door. Can't be more the a 10 miles away, you can check yourself for it's exact distant from the airport, but it appears to be the size of my hand in the window...pretty close I would say.

It is a very distinct 5-story building that has abolutely no buildings, hills or landmarks obstructing views of it from for many miles.

It must represent the easiest target in the world from the air, surely it is the most distinct and easily recognizable one!

But, just for fun, lets take the Truth Movement thesis to its logical conclusion:

So the CIA, Mossad, or some other shadowy government organization planned an elaborate and devastating attack on NYC, somehow guiding two passenger-jets into it's two tallest buildings in plain daylight for the whole world to see (perhaps even adding conventional explosives to the mix)...and then they said, "oh wait, that's not enough, let's also shoot a cruise-missile at the Pentagon 'just for good measure'"...to those who believe this theory: grow up.

Or better yet: organize a MARCH ON WASHINGTON! That's right, I mentioned I'm from DC, and I can say that its relatively easy to get people to join ANY protest because its like a big party. I've joined many marches and protests in DC just out of interest, not political convictions.

I'll tell you why: because it would be pathetically small and the death-knell of this "Truth" Movement

To those who say the "all-powerful government/CIA" obstruct such a protest: Why did they allow so many ANTI-WAR (and ANTI-GOVERNMENT) protests happen? With thousands upon thousands of people protesting policies that the government considered existential. Even the KKK managed a march on Washington of significant proportions...even the KKK.

Let me just say it again: grow up, its scary to think that 20+/- people with no government backing can kill thousands, but that's the world we live in, and that murderous ratio is going to get even more frightening in the coming years. We have to be mature and deal with this reality.

 
At 05 January, 2011 11:15, Blogger C said...

As for the Pentagon: I would ask people to go and "see" the actual building itself: I am from DC and I see it out the plane window EVERY TIME I fly to or from the city in a passenger jet....that's right, there's a major-airport right next door. Can't be more the a 10 miles away, you can check yourself for it's exact distant from the airport, but it appears to be the size of my hand in the window...pretty close I would say.

It is a very distinct 5-story building that has abolutely no buildings, hills or landmarks obstructing views of it from for many miles.

It must represent the easiest target in the world from the air, surely it is the most distinct and easily recognizable one!

But, just for fun, lets take the Truth Movement thesis to its logical conclusion:

So the CIA, Mossad, or some other shadowy government organization planned an elaborate and devastating attack on NYC, somehow guiding two passenger-jets into it's two tallest buildings in plain daylight for the whole world to see (perhaps even adding conventional explosives to the mix)...and then they said, "oh wait, that's not enough, let's also shoot a cruise-missile at the Pentagon 'just for good measure'"...to those who believe this theory: grow up.

Or better yet: organize a MARCH ON WASHINGTON! That's right, I mentioned I'm from DC, and I can say that its relatively easy to get people to join ANY protest because its like a big party. I've joined many marches and protests in DC just out of interest, not political convictions.

I'll tell you why: because it would be pathetically small and the death-knell of this "Truth" Movement

To those who say the "all-powerful government/CIA" obstruct such a protest: Why did they allow so many ANTI-WAR (and ANTI-GOVERNMENT) protests happen? With thousands upon thousands of people protesting policies that the government considered existential. Even the KKK managed a march on Washington of significant proportions...even the KKK.

 

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