Friday, February 23, 2007

151-Proof Troof; My Afternoon With the Deniers

Update: See also Stephen's terrific and much better written summary of the event.

Okay, just got back from the Chandler 9-11 Accountability Confab. So that I don't get accused of burying the lede, Eric D. Williams was there! So much for him being disassociated with the event. In fact, one of the conference organizers (a very nice guy named Lloyd) told me that Eric has a table in the Vendors' room to sell his tracts. Presumably The Puzzle of Auschwitz has been left behind in favor of The Puzzle of 9-11.



(Click pix to enlarge)

Fortunately, I went with Stephen Lemons of the Phoenix New Times, because otherwise we would never have gotten into the press conference, which was filled with "Truthers". As it worked out, Stephen was the only "real" media at the event; unless you consider the Idaho Observer real media.



The panel taking the questions were (reading from left to right): Meria Heller, Jim Marrs, Steven Jones, Janette McKinlay (9-11 artist), Sander Hicks, Kent Knudson (local knucklehead) and Uncle Fetzer. Stephen didn't waste any time asking them how they could talk about "Accountability" without being accountable for having a Holocaust Denier. A groan rose from the crowd. Amazingly, Janette McKinlay said, "Well, Eric's right here! Let's ask him! Do you think that horrible things happened to a lot of people in World War II?" When Eric dutifully acknowledged this meaningless assertion, she appeared to consider the matter settled.



Fortunately Stephen was not to be deterred with this. He asked about the credibility of sources; did people think that Eric Hufschmid is a credible source. Fetzer got on his high horse and declared that while Hufschmid's Holocaust musings were indeed unfortunate, when it came to 9-11, Hufschmid was an "exemplar in excellence in research."

Bob McIlvaine (9-11 father) introduced himself prior to asking a question, and got a round of applause, leading Stephen to ask if this was a press conference or a pep rally. I winced at this, but obviously Stephen didn't know the circumstances. Jon Gold gave some heated comments.

At this point the crowd drew restless. "Throw him out!" By this point I had separated myself from Stephen physically (not from fear, but to make sure one of us could at least remain as an observer). A man who identified himself as hotel security arrived and started escorting Steve out the door. Fortunately, cooler heads (including Phil Berg, who was the moderator) prevailed and after a minute or two he was allowed to remain.

There was a lot of "what can 'we' do" to hold the government accountable for 9-11, which was a pretty good clue that these were not media people asking questions. Berg finally asked how many real working media were in attendance, and about 3 people raised their hands, including the guy from the Idaho Observer.

I got a chance to ask one question, so I tried to make it a zinger without appearing to be a Debunker. Was the 9-11 Truth Movement being infiltrated by the government and/or cults? I pointed out the Haupt/Jamieson dustup video that I'd seen at 9-11 Blogger. Fetzer took the bait, talking about how of course that the FBI was trying to infiltrate them, but that Haupt was not a agent, he was just a nut. Ah, an opening! So I quickly asked why, if he felt that Haupt is a nut, did Fetzer link to 9-11 Researchers at the top of the (new) Scholars for 9-11 Truth site.

Fetzer just about turned purple. Was I accusing him of guilt by association? No, I said, but the link is very prominent at the top of his page and I asked aren't there some things, like the Star Wars Beam Weapon from Space that are dead ends? Well, I threw in the "from space" bit intentionally because I knew that would set him off on how Judy Wood had never said it was from space, to which I retorted that she was the one who called it a Star Wars Beam Weapon, of course people were going to assume it was from space.

Fetzer did a spiel on how areas of research couldn't be closed off without study that this was how science advanced, and (getting back onto the guilt by association thing) that just because one was a kook on one thing you couldn't assume they were a kook on another, and he pointed out that Sir Isaac Newton belonged to some weird cult--I can't remember what it was--and that did that mean his theory of gravity didn't hold. And I did the nodding head thing to assure Fetzer that I was being swayed by his argument and sat down. Fortunately Jones wouldn't let the slander against Sir Isaac Newton go uncorrected; he had personally seen the great scholar's bible or something during a trip to England and was absolutely sure that he was a Christian, not a member of this weird cult that Fetzer was claiming. And as for the Star Wars beam weapon, Greg from the DC group was submitting a paper to JONES on the possibility. So I brown-nosed the teacher by piping up that "It's an energy issue, right?" and he said, well actually it's power, but he gave me a nod of approval. So I felt I had pretty much pulled of a pretty good imitation of a Jones groupie, not a debunker.

Stephen did get to ask the panel members whether they felt Flight 77 had hit the Pentagon. No big surprises. Jones averred that the subject needed more study while mostly thinking it was AA77; only Sander Hicks said he had no doubt it was Chic Burlingame's plane. Fetzer and the rest were firm in the "no-plane at the Pentagon" camp.

After the conference a guy came up to me and asked if I was Patrick Curtiss. I said no, looking at his badge. It said 'Lloyd" and I remembered that a guy by that name had mentioned me on Air America. He asked again, was I Patrick Curtiss from Screw Loose Change?

Well, no, I was not Patrick Curtiss, but I was from Screw Loose Change. So we talked for about ten minutes, and he absolutely thanked me for exposing Eric, saying that the movement had to absolutely dissassociate itself from characters like him, that he absolutely felt they needed solid criticism from people like me. I mentioned how stunned I was when they pointed him out in the crowd, and he just about floored me when he mentioned that Eric still had a booth in the Exhibit Hall. I mean, the only thing dumber is if he turns out to be selling the Puzzle of Auschwitz along with his 9-11 Denier books.

And then a very nice and somewhat scary lady from the LA Truthers engaged us for awhile with the six hijackers are alive, there's no fire in this one picture at the Pentagon and the clocks stopped at 9:31 not 9:37... ad infinitum. And we'd point out the BBC story was early, that if the Loosers wanted to make a mint on their next movie they should go over to the Middle East and find one, that yes, there are many pictures showing the fires at the Pentagon, that there's nobody who says there was a bomb that went off at 9:31. It was all very entertaining, but as I pointed out, why, when I had the answers for 37 straight bits of BS did she think that the 38th was either going to stump me or convince me that 9-11 was an inside job. I think the Truthers are like the IRA; they think the Debunkers have to be right 100% of the time; they only have to be right once. As if there isn't a little thing called credibility that is used up after 37 tries.

Sander Hicks came over after hearing us debating and he was also very pleasant. I should have given him a complete profile, but when I asked him if he thought Mohammed Atta was on Flight 11 he said yes, he was the lead hijacker. He did go into the ISI connection and had some interesting things to say, but I didn't really get why he thought the US had supposedly had the head of the ISI fired if they were behind the operation; surely they should have thanked him for helping out?

He offered me a copy of his book, The Big Wedding, and even autographed it: To Pat: Screw Loose Facts. Then he was out and we were back with Lynn from LA who had a dozen other bits that she wanted to try out on us. At one point she felt compelled to tell us some really bizarre story about how the stone on one of her rings was squeezed out from the hand of a statue of a saint or maybe it was from her hand, and that she had witnessed ten miracles in her life. Stephen got that on tape, I think; I'll ask him to transcribe it because it was the only time all day I didn't have a rejoinder.

She got into the cellphone calls, and she tried all the gambits--Barbara Olsen, Mom, this is Mark Bingham, cellphones don't work at altitude. Finally I turned to Stephen and pointed out that she could go on like this all night and we packed it in.

I took some digital movies as well and will see about getting that up. I got some of Fetzer's ire on tape.

Labels: , ,

52 Comments:

At 24 February, 2007 00:13, Blogger ewing2001 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 05:09, Blogger 911DD said...

Good job, Pat. Should you get bored you can always head over to the Chemtrails booth.

 
At 24 February, 2007 05:39, Blogger texasjack said...

Great work Pat. I think it is very telling that they wanted to kick out the reporter. Aren't these guys continually harping how their rights have been compromised? I guess Freedom of the Press doesn't apply for some of them.

 
At 24 February, 2007 07:25, Blogger CHF said...

I should try that sometime.

Waltz into a herd of twoofers and calmly set them off against eachother.

 
At 24 February, 2007 08:56, Blogger ewing2001 said...

ewing2001 Imposter tries to be funny again, this time hiding IP?

 
At 24 February, 2007 09:04, Blogger ewing2001 said...

Imposter still uses login from http://www.blogger.com/profile/17007365692023636720
while i am http://www.blogger.com/profile/09950338309594936880

see also
"ewing2001" Imposter still linked to Beaverton, OR and Portland 'Truth')
http://www.911bloglines.com/node/37

 
At 24 February, 2007 09:08, Blogger ewing2001 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 10:03, Blogger ewing2001 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 10:03, Blogger ewing2001 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 10:10, Blogger ewing2001 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 10:29, Blogger Critical_Thinker said...

Sander Hicks is a good man. He's the most conscious out of them all (the 9/11 Truth Movement). His book (The Big Wedding) is OK overall. The good parts of it is are the ones on the BCCI scandal, whistleblower Randy Glass, Daniel Hopsicker's findings and it's connections during the Iran-contra days. The bad parts were the ones on Delmart Vreeland (discredited), the so called "neo-nazi connection", and a few others.

The ones I'm still not sure about (but is debatable and has evidence to back it up a little) are the parts on Atta being a double agent and the ISI connection.

 
At 24 February, 2007 10:34, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 10:34, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 11:04, Blogger shawn said...

Williams was a VENDOR. Trust me on this--I have been a vendor at cons and had NOTHING to do with organizing or any authority at, the cons in question.

So they can't say "no, we're not taking your money, you're a disgusting ahistorical blowhard who we don't want having any association whatsoever with your movement"?

 
At 24 February, 2007 11:09, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 11:44, Blogger shawn said...

I respect people who have follow through--surely you could manage an email for your "cause".

See, that's the thing there is no "cause" or "movement" on our end. We're not a monolithic organization trying to further political goals - we're a bunch of random lads and lasses who enjoy things like reason and evidence and would like people to know the reality of important events.

 
At 24 February, 2007 12:29, Blogger Paul Revere said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 12:32, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 12:37, Blogger Myra99 said...

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Searching for 9/11 answers - By Derek Gentile,
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Part of group believes government planned attacks

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S P E E D - U P S

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~~~~~~

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At 24 February, 2007 12:49, Blogger shawn said...

Sound like all the 911activists I know. ;-)

They wouldn't be "911activists" if they employed reason and evidence and cared that reality be more important than ideology.

It's cute how you people don't get that.

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:25, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:29, Blogger ConsDemo said...

I see we have a spammer.

"And I understand that. The realization that people in power are trying to hurt us, and not help us, is very frightening to them. It's frightening to me."

Yes, and how does this same government that breathlessly bumped off 3K of its own citizens let a dangerous subversive like "Renzo Del Molino" run free? Will the wonders never cease!

Perhaps America could regain its reputation if General Pace would send a division of US Marines to arrest Bush, Cheney, the entire civilian contingent in the Pentagon

I, for one, can't wait for the day for Bush and Cheney to leave office but it is pretty clear Paul Craig Roberts will never regain his reputation.

If you are among the 16% who still believe the Neonazicons' conspiracy theory about 9/11, YOU CAN BE HELPED!

Wow, does this mean we can consume the same drugs as the twoofers?

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:32, Blogger ConsDemo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:34, Blogger ConsDemo said...

Speaking of "courage", Kernel Sparks, if you imbeciles truly believe the U.S. government killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11, why are you sitting on your duff posting on blogs and attending goofball conventions? If I thought as you do, I'd be part of a violent revolutionary movement. Heck, the accusation of mass murder is something I take seriously, don't you?

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:35, Blogger 911DD said...

Col. Sparks, thanks for the link.

It seems you got your butt kicked (as usual) over there at 911Blogger.com. Holocaust denier and chemtrail woo woo vendors seem to be about your level of competence.

You ought to get back to helping your idol and leader, Rick Siegel, out of his present difficulties, Sparky.

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:51, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:53, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:53, Blogger CHF said...

What the hell is Jenny character on about?

 
At 24 February, 2007 13:59, Blogger ConsDemo said...

You are advocating violence.

No Kernel Sparks. Since I don't believe the ludicrous "9/11 was an inside job" conspiracy theory, I have no reason to advocate violence. However, that would be logical response from an agrieved populace for such a horrific crime committed by a government. It is impossible to take you clowns seriously when you act so pusillanimous.

 
At 24 February, 2007 14:14, Blogger Paul Revere said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 16:04, Blogger shawn said...

Many record were destroyed, many Nazis lied trying to make themselves seem more vigourous than they were, for us to belive the grossly inflated figure of 6 million Jews killed.

So the Nazis lied to seem more guilty? Wonders never cease with you morons.

What of the six million others who died? Are those number inflated as well - or is it just with the Jooooos?

Anyone who says "6 million" is "inflated" has proven that they're about as ignorant as one could be about the Holocaust.

 
At 24 February, 2007 16:16, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

Jenny;

if I remember correctly, Eric was part of the organizing, and was chair at one point, but gave it up once the bad word got out on him. To say he was merely a vendor speaks volumes. Now at least I know your mindset.

TAM

 
At 24 February, 2007 16:17, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

The reason we are all so amazed at his presence there, was because he was once very involved in setting it up, but then pulled out, so we did not expect to see hide nor hair of him.

TAM

 
At 24 February, 2007 16:34, Blogger Paul Revere said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 24 February, 2007 16:42, Blogger 911DD said...

Col. Sparky wrote,

"Where did you get the idea I was a fan of Rick Siegel?"

From Rick, Nico, and you. Are you going to deny the fact like your deny everything else Col Sparky?

You still get prickly and deny the known association of Holocaust deniers, and Chemtrail junkies with 9/11 conspiracy conferences. You were particularly sensitive to that point on 911Blogger.com.

The truth is painful for you in every way, Sparky.

 
At 24 February, 2007 16:49, Blogger James B. said...

If you take an entire ethnic group, pack them into concentration camps, deny them food and medical care, and then work them to death, it makes little difference whether they die from starvation, disease, being shot, or poisonous gas, it is still genocide regardless.

 
At 24 February, 2007 16:55, Blogger medicis said...

"Many Jews were killed, but mostly from disease. And now, this myth of the Holocaust controls Washington. And that is also the 911"truthers" goal--to use the Myth of 911 to control our government and destroy this great nation."

What nation? The Republic of the United States is long gone. Has been long gone. I am a patiotic citizen of a republic that is no more.

Frankly, I despise empires. I despise the death and destruction they cause to innocents, the fascism they employ at home.

The 'Great Nation' has been destroyed from within. The 'Within' is comprised of the neocons, neoliberals, corporatists, ad nausea. And it is supported, in ignorance I imagine, by various groups as is well known. Nobody else had to do anything to further that process. There is no 911 truther that doesn't want a return to the Republic. But you ain't gonna get a Republic until you get rid of the Empire. I have no consideration for any who defend the empire.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:03, Blogger shawn said...

Looks like we have another idiot.

Do you political infants know what an empire actually is? There's a huge difference between the British Empire and America today.

The problem with the people saying America is an empire is that they have no support for what they say. Warfare doesn't make you an empire. In order for America to be an empire you'd need white Christian males running Iraq and Afghanistan - they wouldn't have their own leaders or constitutions. Also, we'd drain them of resources rather than buy gas and oil at normal prices.

Even barring that, it doesn't mean America isn't a republic. In the most literal sense a republic is any state that doesn't have a hereditary head of state. If you want the more specific definition of a federal republic then America is still one. The Roman Republic existed as a republic (even though it had conquered other nations at the time) until Caesar became dictator and his adopted son became the first emperor.

I have no consideration for any who defend the empire.

You cannot defend that which does not exist.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:03, Blogger shawn said...

What nation? The Republic of the United States is long gone.

A nation is a group of people, Einstein. The state is the government - which would be the republic. As long as there are Americans, there is a nation of America.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:06, Blogger shawn said...

Shawn, you have much to learn about history.

Sure I do, but not about the Second World War.

Many Jews were killed, but mostly from disease. And now, this myth of the Holocaust controls Washington. And that is also the 911"truthers" goal--to use the Myth of 911 to control our government and destroy this great nation.

Most did not die from disease, which doesn't actually matter (1.5 million killed by the death squads in Eastern Europe). As James said, once you pack them all into camps if they die it's your fault - it's still genocide.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:13, Blogger medicis said...

It was nice to have my presuppostions confirmed when you presented an ad hominem in the first line. Very clever.

The Definition of a Republic is:
republic [Lat. res publica,=public affair], today understood to be a sovereign state ruled by representatives of a widely inclusive electorate. The term republic formerly denoted a form of government that was both free from hereditary or monarchical rule and had popular control of the state and a conception of public welfare. It is in this sense that we speak of the ancient Roman republic. Today, in addition to the above characteristics, a republic is a state in which all segments of society are enfranchised and in which the state's power is constitutionally limited.

Sounds like you are wrong. And subsequent to the Military Commissions Act et. al., the State's power seems unlmited to me.

Further, there are many republican writers who now refer to the U.S. as an -empire-. I suppose they are all infants as well.

I think you need to go back to school. - that is An ad hominem. -

And yes, I have no consideration for you.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:17, Blogger medicis said...

Oh, and I don't particularly care about your reply. You haven't demonstrated much so far. Got a son to pick up from a birthday party.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:20, Blogger James B. said...

It cracks me up how are these CTs are constantly posting how we have a fascist government, an all powerful empire where the government watches every step, and stifles any attempt at dissent.

Meanwhile these same people post every day on the Internet, write books, make movies, and even attend publicised conferences where they accuse that very same government of treason and murder, and not a single one of them has ever been censored, or is even the slightest bit worried about this all powerful government doing anything to stop them. If fact they are disappointed that nobody really cares.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:31, Blogger Col. Jenny Sparks said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:45, Blogger shawn said...

Sounds like you are wrong. And subsequent to the Military Commissions Act et. al., the State's power seems unlmited to me.

The Military Commissions Acts only applies to noncitizens. Perhaps you should read it sometime.

To quote from dictionary.com on "republic" - "a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state." For instance, Iraq under Saddam was a republic. So is Pakistan, also a dictatorship.

Further, there are many republican writers who now refer to the U.S. as an -empire-. I suppose they are all infants as well.

Yes. I'm not a Republican, so you're little try at a "gotcha" isn't going to work. Most people aren't exactly informed as to how political terminology works - you prove that by not realizing that a republic can be a dictatorship.

I think you need to go back to school. - that is An ad hominem. -

Do you also have a degree in political science?

My ad hominem didn't matter, especially since you didn't disprove it.

 
At 24 February, 2007 17:48, Blogger shawn said...

Oh, and I don't particularly care about your reply. You haven't demonstrated much so far.

It's kind of sad you have a kid with such immature responses. I don't understand why people who get their asses handed to them pretend that their opponent didn't prove their point. I did, you were wrong - the least you could do is own up to it.

Or do we have a monarch or hereditary head of state? Oh, we don't?

 
At 24 February, 2007 18:37, Blogger Pat said...

Jenny, apparently you're not up to date. I exchanged several cordial emails with Pete Creelman of the local group. I was not going to participate or lend my name to the conference because of the involvement of Barrett; of course when I saw that Williams was there and heard he had a booth, that cinched things.

 
At 24 February, 2007 23:37, Blogger BG said...

Pat,

It was great that you attended, participated, reported here.

I particularly enjoyed hearing about your encounter with Sander Hicks.

The short video of Fetzer shows him taking a postion I support. Unfortunately, from one viewpoint Fetzer being reasonable is a bad thing, because in general I am considering the possibility that Fetzer has taken actions (and will continue to do so) to hurt the cause of pursuit of the truth of 9/11.

 
At 25 February, 2007 05:59, Blogger 911DD said...

Col. Sparky wrote,

"Well, love, if you can find a link where I say I'm a fan of Rick Seigel--and it's NOT obviously satirical--have at it and post it here."

Why do you care about 'facts' all of a sudden, Sparky? Facts have never meant squat to you before.

P.S. Since turning on comments does not apply retroactively to past posts on Blogger, I re-posted them under yesterday's date so you could comment. Of course, you chickened out, Sparky.

 
At 25 February, 2007 12:03, Blogger Cl1mh4224rd said...

medicis wrote: "What nation? The Republic of the United States is long gone. Has been long gone. I am a patiotic citizen of a republic that is no more.

Frankly, I despise empires. I despise the death and destruction they cause to innocents, the fascism they employ at home."


So how long ago was this great Republic of yours? I'm an American, and I like my country as much as the next guy, but I haven't deluded myself to the point of forgetting what "we" did to the native population of this land in our early history.

I don't think your "great Republic" ever really existed.

 
At 27 February, 2007 13:25, Blogger tempestuous said...

Look at you all. Censoring you're own blog. Oh ye Hypocrits!

 
At 14 March, 2007 10:18, Blogger winnybar said...

The 9/11 Base Of Operations:
Aircraft Carrier USS George Washington

http://home.att.net/~south.tower/911AirBase1.htm

 

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