Always Read to The End!
Classic example is this story. It's a pretty humdrum response to the Monbiot article from somebody whose name sounds vaguely familiar, and I'm debating whether it's worth blogging and then I swallow my gum:
Tim Sparke is executive producer of Loose Change Final Cut.
Well, so he's in our wheelhouse. Now actually I had heard of Sparke before; he was mentioned in the very favorable piece the Guardian as being the international distributor of Loose Change:
"This is unlike anything I have worked on," says Tim Sparke of MercuryMedia, which handles international distribution for the film. "It has forced millions of people to question whether they can trust big media, and by bypassing the broadcasters through internet distribution it has altered the media power balance profoundly. With a little money and passion, anyone can make an important film."
However, given that Sparke appears to be the source for the claim that the show had aired on Irish TV (it was cancelled thanks to diligent work by the JREF crew), he may be inflating his importance.
At any rate, Sparke should fit in with the Loosers based on this quote:
Monbiot suggests that thousands of people must have been involved in the conspiracy, as if the official story must therefore be true. We have no clue as to how many (though some suggest probably fewer than 1,000); but wasn't the Manhattan project, involving 100,000, kept secret, even from Vice-President Truman, until weeks before the first atom bomb was dropped?
Truman had been Vice President for 82 days when President Roosevelt died. He was quickly briefed on the Manhattan Project and was of course brought up to speed shortly thereafter. And as we have discussed many times, comparing the Manhattan Project to 9-11 is profoundly offensive and flawed. Offensive because it compares keeping quiet about a secret project that will help your country to victory in a major war, to keeping quiet about a plot that resulted in the death of thousands of Americans. Betraying the Manhattan Project was treason; so would have been participating in the 9-11 fantasy plot.
And, sadly, flawed because some Americans did betray their country; Stalin was well aware of the Manhattan Project.
Labels: Atomic Bomb, Loose Change, Tim Sparke
posted by Pat @ 10:06 PM
42 comments
42 Comments:
Actually my favorite part of this was this passage:
Monbiot also appears unaware that several engineers and demolition experts, after studying videos, have declared that this collapse can only have been caused by explosives.
I enquired as to the names of these "several" experts, but have not received a response. Note of course, that they only declared this after "studying videos", not after "carrying out an extensive scientific analysis".
So, Pat, you got this from Nico, didn't you?
""With a little money and passion, anyone can make an important film."
Give me a break. Anyone full hate and modern technology can make a film. There is no positive "passion" in the patehtic twoofer movement.
No Kernel Sparks, one doesn't need to get James' assertion from someone else. The twoofer clowns see what they want to see in the video, they don't need "scientific analysis" because they know the answer beforehand. In their mind, America is evil, it killed its own people, case closed. Science is has never been the basis for twoofer beliefs.
Aside from the moral/ethical bullshit, lets compare apples and apples.
Hmmm Manhattan Project was a secret plan to develop a weapon that would kill 100,000+ innocent people...twice and eventually 100's of times over as the technology rooted in MP has led to 100's if not 1000's of nuclear weapons.
9/11, as an inside job, was a plan executed to justify a entire shift in domestic and foreign policy, resulting so far in 2+ foreign wars that some have estimated to have killed 100,000 civilians and 3000+ American troops. And as some members of the Bush Admin. have stated a War on Terror that will not end in our lifetime. Although the War on Some Terrorists can't destroy the world 10x over like the end result of the Man. Project did.
I suppose you could view 9/11 inside job as evil, or as a political realist you could view the event as a necessary evil in order to justify the emperial expansion of America into Southwest Asia with the most apparent goal of securing strategic energy resources for the next generation and assisting in the security of Israel.
Considering the record of the Federal Government and its lies perpetrated upon our military and civilian population, an inside job is completely plausible and likely.
Start with the air quality lies in NYC, to Iraq, and work backwards through history and you have a great historical case for an inside job.
After comparing the two events, both seem rather similiar after all.
Sorry, 650,000+ Iraqis..
http://www.commondreams.org/
news2006/1208-03.htm
No Swing.. The Manhattan Project was a secret plan to develop a weapon BEFORE the Germans or the Soviets could develop one. You will find few Americans who saw this as anything but necessary, including liberals as myself, you sure did not want the Nazis to get it first. It may have been a secret to the common publics but the Germans knew what we were doing as did the Soviets. And remember this was a time before the internet and TV.
WWII was supported by all Americans and the government was trusted to do what right unlike todays adversarial press.
It also would have been treasonous to talk about the MP, BUT if someone did have powerful verifiable proof of a 911 plot by the government they would have no fear what so ever of treason charges. In fact to keep their mouth shut would be a dangerous thing to do while blowing the whistle would make that person safe from reprisal by putting them in the public spotlight. They would be a heros and untouchable.
You say this so called plot was done to expand the US interest but the effect has been the opposit. Our respect and influence has been weakened by an unnecessary war in Iraq. Bush is a lame duck joke of a man, The only people profiting from 911 are the 911 CT crowd who sell t-shirts, books and DVD to silly little guy with room temperature IQs and an appetite for bullshit.
Given that the Truthers seem to believe establishing a possible motive is the same thing as proving their case, I think 911_truthiness has just definitively proved Dylan Avery was behind 9/11. I'd always suspected as much, but I'd been too scared to speak out. Obviously.
It also would have been treasonous to talk about the MP, BUT if someone did have powerful verifiable proof of a 911 plot by the government they would have no fear what so ever of treason charges.
All this talk misses the real error in the troofers' attempt to parallel 9-11 with the Manhattan project. The bomb project was successfully kept secret from the public, true. But on the morning after Hiroshima, the government didn't blame the explosion on the Russians or on the Japanese themselves. And if they had tried to do so, the truth would have come out within hours or days, even with the slower communications of the time. The project to produce and deliver an atom bomb was only secret until it was completed.
For the parallel to have validity, the US would have had to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and then said, "Wasn't us. I dunno, meteors, maybe?" and people would have had to believe it AND all the people who made the bomb and delivered it would have had to clam up. Robert Oppenheimer would have had to stay silent. The crew of the USS Indianapolis would have had to say, "Uh, training mission. Nothing to see here." The crews of the ten or so planes in the missions, the people who loaded the heavy and unusally-shaped bombs, Navy brass, congressmen, scientists, all silenced. That is what the troofers are alleging happened on 9-11.
Actually it would have been more complicated than that, they would have had to actually bomb Manhattan and blame the Japanese. All those thousands of workers and soldiers would have had to stay quiet about it.
Jenny, I got it from that well-known disinformation source, Jon Gold, over at 9-11 Blogger. You do actually read the posts over there, don't you?
Here's yet another flaw in the "military projects stay secret" argument:
People in a position to about military secrets are longtime military personnel, with securities clearances and background checks, who have been chosen for their trustworthiness, and can be severely punished if they spill the beans. And even with all these precautions, secrets get out.
As has been illustrated countless times, a 9/11 conspiracy would have required the cooperation of all manner of ordinary citizens who have no background checks, no security clearances, no incentive to go along with the plan, and plenty of reasons not to (you know, what with the killing and all).
Not only would a 9/11 conspiracy had to have involved more people than the Manhattan Project, they would have been people who were far less likely to go along with it. To believe that so many ordinary people willingly participated in the large-scale slaughter of their own neighbors, even though no one credible has come forward after five years and five months, is completely laughable.
Truthy, do tell, what is a weapon used for?
To kill people of course. Thanks to Einstein's letter to Ike, the U.S. paved the way for the construction of the bomb. Pearl Harbor only served to accelerate the process.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were simply means to an end. It was either that or engage in a ridiculous island hoping campaign only to end with the invasion of the main island.
There is some evidence of high treason according to Major Jordan's diaries. He was a Liaison Officer involved with the Lend Lease program, specifically working with the Russians. Many of these shipments involved the transfer of materials and information used in the production of atomic weapons. What exactly the Russians did with the materials, is unknown. Nothing to conspiratorial, but it does serve as a primary source document regarding the transfer of technology to the Russians via Henry Hopkins in the State Dept.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/
wars/jordan/10.html
verifiable proof of a 911 plot by the government they would have no fear what so ever of treason charges.
Are you serious? If someone had verifiable proof they would probably fear for their life and that fear is what would keep them quiet. Or they would wholeheartedly support the operation for whatever nationalist or personal reasons. That is why political realism is such a great philosophy when it comes to the treament of other human beings.
I'm guessing the ground level crews would be foreign nationals so that the U.S. could maintain plausible deniability and they would be easily expendable if there was any suspicion of going public.
James Perhaps you are right only instead of comparing it to MP, it should be compared to Pearl Harbor to justify involvement in WW2.
James Perhaps you are right only instead of comparing it to MP, it should be compared to Pearl Harbor to justify involvement in WW2.
Only if you are claiming that Admiral Nimitz himself carried out Pearl Harbor using American Aircraft carriers and Navy fighters disguised as Japanese Zeros. And not a single sailor complained about it or blew the whistle.
Trite the number of conspirators involved in 9/11 doesn't have to number more than the MP.
1. Wargames and orders took care of the fighter response. Maybe it was the 'white jet' or maybe it was military that shot 93 down. Wargames also offer plausible deniablity as well. It gives Cheney the excuse for the orders comment and Bush's response as both pertain to the wargames exercise. Both come under public scrutiny for short time, but underlings believe it was they were simply responding to the wargames scenario. No need to testify on the record to Congress because of National Security issues
with the war games themselves.
2. You have one or two guys issuing orders to the security personal in the WTC complex to remove bomb sniffing dogs, and to hire a new crew of night shift workers, whatever it takes to get the buildings ready.
3. In a LIHOP situation, the hijack scenario plays out as it did, and all three targets hit their mark.
4. A handful of intel agents, probably not affliated with the U.S. are the fall guys or actual hijackers handled by Fed. agencies.
Got a couple of them living with a bunk FBI informant professor, and a few others being tailed by Able Danger.
4. In a MIHOP, it gets a little more complicated involving the piloted planes. Maybe they were swapped out per Northwoods, and everyone in the know believes it is part of the exercise, or remote control the craft so there are no issues.
Either way, your looking at a realitive small number of conspirators. And many because of the war games are clueless to the whole operation anyway.
Those that do raise issues are gaged by their respective agencies and threated with the punishment of violating National Security laws or investigated in a half ass manner and found to be false as per Able Danger unit. All other stories or information after the act are reported once by the media only to never be heard of again and any voice in opposition to the conspiracy is silenced through editorialship, gatekeeping, or viewed as 'nuts'. At which case the press doesn't have to be in on it at all. If so, just the CEO's of said corporations. Everyone goes along because everyone benefits, be it corporate profit gain thanks to a never ending war, or personal promotion. And to keep it all deniable, NO ONE is held accountable and no one is punished. To keep victims from raising questions and bringing lawsuits, a reward is offered to keep victims from doing exactly that. No investigative body is formed to study what happened, until enough victims pressure is made public. Your main scientific panel is composed mostly of folks you have used in the pass, ie OKC, Pan Am, etc. No professional private instittuions question the final report because they trust those professionals and they haven't been exposed to evidence that might point in a different direction.
If someone had verifiable proof they would probably fear for their life and that fear is what would keep them quiet.
Insert "irony meter" joke here.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bomb sniffing dogs were not removed from the WTC genius, in fact at least one died in the collapse.
Swing said...
Are you serious? If someone had verifiable proof they would probably fear for their life and that fear is what would keep them quiet.
Come on. your stupidity is showing here. The info is a danger to the person so long as he keeps it secret, once he put it out and in the public eye it becomes a liability to hurt or kill that person cause it would only prove he was on to something. And we are talking about hundreds if not thousands of people who would have direct knowledge of the plot. THINK A LITTLE! not all are going to be rabid nationalist or afraid.
Foreign nationals would have even less of a reason to keep quiet. Unfriendly foreign press would just love to prove the US government did 911.
Swing.. have you every taken the logical step of asking why you DON'T see the supposed alive highjackers being paraded before the people on TV in others countries? Wouldn't that prove the BIG plot? I can tell you why, they are dead, they died on their suicide missions.
"""That is why political realism is such a great philosophy when it comes to the treament of other human beings."""
The only "political realism" I see is on the truthers side. Even though there is nothing real about what you believe. You have such a low regard for your fellow man you believe they could actually engage in the evil henchman shit you see in movies an TV. Got news for you that sort of stuff is not real. But is typical of the fuzzy thinking of the "lowlife leftist"
You know the type? They embrace the progressive movement NOT because they understand what it is to be liberal but because they are truly useless members of society. Unskilled and low of intelligence they blame "The Man" or "The NWO" for their lot in life, they pick up of the 911 truth thing as way of kidding themselves into thinking they are really doing something, But it's all just conspiratorial masturbation. Quite Sad.
If someone had verifiable proof they would probably fear for their life and that fear is what would keep them quiet.
Triterope said...
Insert "irony meter" joke here.
Beautiful, idnit? The lack of any believable and germane evidence for the conspiracy is offered as proof that the conspiracy exists.
And, as you suggest, the logical implication of the statement is that none of the CTers has proof.
As to Dangler's assertion that anyone with good evidence of the conspiracy would be so craven as to keep quiet, he's wrong. I'm not a particularly brave person and I don't come from a family of heroes, but I know that if I had inside knowledge I wouldn't keep it secret, damned be the consequences, and nobody in my family would, either. I don't believe I know anybody who would be so low. Certainly, I don't know anybody that I disrespect sufficiently to accuse of such cowardice with absolutely no evidence. Perhaps Swing dangles in other circles; very small concentric circles.
One of the most repugnant (to me) features of David Ray Griffin's claims is that all the people who must have been involved (hundreds of thousands, at least) could "easily" be intimidated into silence. What sort of ethical retard could project such behavior?
Trite the number of conspirators involved in 9/11 doesn't have to number more than the MP.
Really? Wow, I'm glad that's settled.
From now on I shall be sure to disregard any 9/11 conspiracy that would require the involvement of any non-military personnel.
Such as: NIST, FEMA, Larry Silverstein, Popular Mechanics, the New York Port Authority, Implosion World, structural engineers (all of them), the mass media (all of them, even outside the U.S.), the computer engineers who recreated and studied the attack, the airlines, the FAA, the scrapyards, the demolitionists who would have had to wire the buildings -- that's kind of a big one, come to think of it -- the victim's families, the other people who said they got calls from passengers, all the cleanup crews, all the eyewitnesses who reported the attack consistent with the "official story", all the "disinfo agents" who are apparently getting orders from someone, the NYC firefighters, the NYC police department, the dancing Jews who stayed home from work that day, various non-military government officials (Willie Brown, John Ashcroft, Leon Mineta) all the people who planted evidence, all the insurance companies who paid out the claims, whoever operated the remote controls, whoever pushed the detonator button, whoever set up the hologram projector, who ever placed the thermite, whoever placed the thermate, the architects that designed the WTC such that it could be easily imploded if it became unprofitable, the people who wanted it gotten rid of rather than fix the asbestos problems, and Osama Bin Laden himself for taking credit for the whole thing. Oh, and Noam Chomsky.
Nice job Swing Dangler, you've destroyed MIHOP in one sentence.
David Ray Griffin's claims is that all the people who must have been involved (hundreds of thousands, at least) could "easily" be intimidated into silence. What sort of ethical retard could project such behavior?
But that is exactly the mind set of these people. They will laugh at people who thought Sudam has something to do with 911 due to the Bush snow job but they cant see how gullible they themselves are for buying the truthers lies. They got sold a bill of goods.
And meet one in person and it's like taking candy from a baby, you feel sorry for them because you have smashed this thing they have invested so much of their time into. Most just run off before being too disillusioned by the mean old sceptic. I have yet to find one who can stand up to a one on one.
Oh, and Swing? 2+2=4.
Swing Dangler said...
Either way, your looking at a realitive small number of conspirators. And many because of the war games are clueless to the whole operation anyway.
What the hell does "relatively small number" mean? Relative to the number of people on earth?
You obviously don't understand how large bureaucratic organizations (like Defense and the military) operate. To get an idea of how many people would need to be involved, just go through your list of tasks and figure out how many people are necessary for each.
Wargames and orders.
[even though there's no evidence that wargames and orders had anything to do with anything] Imagine trying to set up wargames to accomplish the diversion and using the chain of command to get orders down to the squadron level in order to take "care of the fighter response." This single part of the operation would require vast numbers of willing participants (including the pilots) if the conspirators wanted to keep it secret. Normal information channels that would spread this information throughout the organization like a virus have to be plugged; it's imperative that they be plugged, or the operation is screwed. My guess is that we've got thousands of co-conspirators involved with just this phase. If you think you can do it with "relatively" few, show your work. Start at the top (with Rumsfeld, perhaps) and count the number of people necessary to accomplish this task. Demonstrate how it is possible to keep all but a "relatively small number" in the dark.
Disable WTC security
You can't get rid of the security with one or two guys. Again, count them up. How do you keep the old security guys in the dark, and how do you keep them from revealing the fact that they were replaced? How many people does it take to hire a new security crew? This, all by itself, is a nontrivial task. Then, you've got the hundreds of guys necessary to actually plant the explosives and hook up everything. Add in all the support personnel (like sheetrockers, carpet layers, elevator technicians, electricians and the like) necessary to get it done. Add in the engineers and architects necessary and don't forget all the support staff--draftsmen (and women), receptionists, secretaries, etc. Organizations of professionals (like architects) are not used to keeping information secret from others within the organization. If some novel technology is used, don't forget all the people involved with the creation of that technology and all the people that the conspirators have to get through in order to use that technology. Let's say, for example, that "super nano-thermite" was used. Where does it come from? Who invented it? Who manfactured it? Who procured it? How was it shipped? To plan and implement the disabling of WTC security and to install the explosives: you're talking a couple thousand right here -- at least.
controlling the media with CEOs only
Once again, you have no idea how tasks are accomplished in large, bureaucratic organizations. CEOs can't actually do anything -- they can't even get their own coffee or pick up their own laundry. Most of them probably need an assistant to tie their shoes or shake their dicks after urinating. They get things done by working through vast layers of sycophants who deal only with their own sycophants -- turtles all the way down. Even if a media CEO were involved in such a conspiracy, how does the CEO keep track of what's being published/aired? Normally, decision making as to what is actually published is highly decentralized. In order to change the way things are usually done requires great expenditures of energy to overcome the institutional inertia. Sort of like a law of physics.
gagging by agencies, gatekeeping, "editorialship," half-assed investigations
How do you accomplish these tasks without involving a "relatively" large number of conspirators? And, you have to do it all in advance. You can't just depend on the Kos kids, for example, to keep the gate, you have to set it up in advance. How do you make sure that Cockburn and Chomsky, et al, will be on board?
disinterested/unquestioning professionals/institutions
Of all the people in the world who have expert knowledge in relevent disciplines, almost none of them questions the facts of what happened on 911. And, those professionals who do question the facts (S. Jones, J. Wood, A.K. Dewdney) do it not with their knowledge and expertise, but with half-baked novel theories manufactured to fit their political and ideological prejudices. You do not have a very good idea (perhaps no idea at all) how scientists and engineers think and how they reach conclusions. The notion that a couple crackpot philosophers and theologians (and all the "good Germans" who follow them) can drunkly stagger into the truth while hundreds of thousands of professionals and their organizations remain criminally ignorant displays a monumental level of hubris.
Finally, I have one more question. Are you too stupid to figure out how to use the anchor tag?
shake their dicks after urinating.
kind of a sexist way to refer to CEO's, don't ya think.
Here's the problem with the "relatively few people would have to 'know' about the plan" fantasy:
The fewer the people who are "in on it", the more people there are, directly involved with the events, who can say, "Huh... That doesn't make any sense."
The alleged 9/11 conspiracy requires that a lot of the people directly involved must be fully aware of what's "really" going on.
But then this presents a problem of it's own, which has been mentioned countless times: leaks. The more people directly involved, the more likely at least one of them has a conscience and feels overwhelmingly guilty about what happened.
It's a lose-lose for the "truthers".
Sorry, 650,000+ Iraqis..
http://www.commondreams.org/
news2006/1208-03.htm
There's actually a lot of problems with the Lancet study (just like the first one) that even the anti-war IRaq Body Count site brings up.
Not to mention that howler of an apple to apple thing you bring up. The folks working on the Project were working together to end a war quickly (killing people in the short term, saving lives in the long term) and against a foreign enemy who attacked them. They were not killing their own people, nor were they countless members of separate government bodies (which would be required in an inside job).
It's apples and oranges, moron.
BG said...
kind of a sexist way to refer to CEO's, don't ya think.
I don't think so. "Most of them" happen to be men. If there are any CEOs that might be conspirators, are there any women who might be among them?
And besides that, it's too good a metaphor to be slain by effete political correctness.
But, a deliberately offensive metaphor should not incite a gender biased response unless that is the intent; in this case it was not. So, in light of the response, I guess I'll search for a more gender neutral offensive metaphor. Several come to mind.
A handful of intel agents, probably not affliated with the U.S. are the fall guys or actual hijackers handled by Fed. agencies.
Wow the evil American government now employs suicide bombers!
Is there a moronic theory you twoofers won't invent?
Are you serious? If someone had verifiable proof they would probably fear for their life and that fear is what would keep them quiet.
Right, you all know it was an "inside job" but nobody can offer any proof. Perfect circular reasoning, by that logic a mere assertion is "proof".
It's too good a metaphor to be slain by effete political correctness.
Damn right it is. Fatollie, I like the way you think.
Well where should I start..
1. JamesB-our resident genius
Bomb sniffing dogs-
Heightened Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted
By Curtis L. Taylor and Sean Gardiner
STAFF WRITERS
September 12, 2001
The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.
Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."
Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center...
2. A pilot participating in a war game exercise does not make them part of a conspiracy. That makes them a good pilot for following orders. Scratch all the pilots off the list and the FAA as well.
3.Foreign nationals would have even less of a reason to keep quiet. So what your saying is that professional hitmen, foreign mechanics if you will, are going to go public with the knowledge that they participated in a conspiracy? RIIIGHT. Scratch foreign nationals off the list.
4. Hijackers alive? I didn't bring that up in a potential scenario. Why did you, truthy? Could it be mistaken identity on the part of the press? Sure. Could it be a case of stolen identitiy? Seems more likely if you were hijacker. I wouldn't want family members exposed to the retribution and examination by a hostile foreign government if I were a hijacker. Pointless though because I didn't bring up the 'alive hijackers'.
5.You have such a low regard for your fellow man you believe they could actually engage in the evil henchman shit you see in movies an TV. I have a very high regard for my fellow man and besides I'm not a political realist. The justifible actions for our foreign policy are rooted in political realism. It is political realism that dictated the Federal Government LIE to the American people about the air qualitiy in NYC. What kind of regard for human life is that????
It was political realism that led the Federal Government to LIE to the public about Iraq. It was politcal realism that justified the Feds LYING to the American public about the start of the Vietnam war. A covert operation cause the military response of the NVA, not the other way around. You just have to love declassified documents, don't you?
Politics in general are quite easy to figure out. The truth is the exact opposite of what they state publicly. (I know a very general statment that has held true over an d over.
6.Trite I'm not sure what your saying there pal. Your lumping a whole lot of people into a post that doesn't quite make sense.
7. David Ray Griffin? Where did I bring him up? Besides, I've never read his books. I've only read Crossing the Rubicon and Jim Marrs, 9/11 conspiracies. (That might be the wrong title, but it was one of his books.)The only movies I've seen are LC (which we all agree has issues) and 9/11 Demolitions. DRG? Why did you throw him into the mix, Truthy?
8.As to Dangler's assertion that anyone with good evidence of the conspiracy would be so craven as to keep quiet, he's wrong.
Would you care to prove I'm wrong by using historical examples?
9.Size matters? Examine the Enron conspiracy. How many higher ups were well aware of the fraud being perptratued on Wall Street and investors? How many floor level traders were involved?
How many name brand banks went along with the fraud? But yet it still took place, didn't it?! Why? Everyone benefited. And when the house of card collapsed, they all claimed ignorance.
10. (even though there's no evidence that wargames and orders had anything to do with anything)
Until you correct this erroneous thinking, I will not respond to your post. If you still believe that, then you haven't studied the OS story, testimony of generals, ATC tapes, etc, etc.
11. Wow the evil American government now employs suicide bombers! No, we employ homicide bombers. Wether it is the Savak in Iran, Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, terrorist organization, PMOI, in Iraq (this verified by a friend who served in Iraq, showed me pics of the members of the group,the compound we constructed to house and train them as well as some of their propaganda they use to garner support against Iran even though they are still on the State Dept.s list of terrorist organisations), do I even have to bring up Operation Northwoods?, continued support of Pakistan, even though the State Dept. asked them to stop harbouring and supporting terrorists, William Blum excellent
Killing Hope: US Military and CIA
Interventions Since World War II. The list goes on and on.
And please, don't confuse morals and ethics (evil American government) for political realism, where there are no moral or ethics only national interests.
Disable WTC security
You can't get rid of the security with one or two guys.
Sure you can. It is called following orders, doing your job, etc.
What the hell does "relatively small number" mean? Good question. Relative to say the 1000's of people many have said would have to be involved.
Of all the people in the world who have expert knowledge in relevent disciplines, almost none of them questions the facts of what happened on 911.
And please tell us, how many people are there in the world that have expert knowledge in the relevant disciplines? If you can provide that information, then elaborate and determine if those people are aware of the anomolies in the event itself that raise questions? Case in point, I work with a construction engineer and a man with a degree in physics. Both what I consider experts in their relevant fields BOTH HAD NO IDEA WTC 7 COLLAPSED! They also had no idea about the reports of explosions going off in the basements and at ground level! That is exactly what I'm talking about. You might have a point if all those experts in the world you mention been exposed to all of the relevant information that is inconsistent with the OS. Your point is also a nice use of appeal to popularity fallacy which disqualifies your point. Those that have went public, you attack their character instead of the their information. Jones for example. You also use a hasty generalization fallacy by referring to the small number of experts who have come foward.
That being said, IMHO, it doesn't take 1000's to partake in a conspiracy. By constantly pointing to that fact, you try to disprove the conspiracy by pointing to POTENTIAL problems with the number of people, be it leaks, whistleblowers, etc.
He's right guys, James Bond could have done it all by himself.
Hey Alex
How long do you think it takes him to repackage the same debunked BS?
It seems that no matter how many times he is proven wrong he repackages it and acts like it is new. I was laughing so hard at his 1-11 and his 500 words on mindless babble yet in all this BS he never gets around to answering our questions, just comes back with the same stupid tapdance, diversion and dumb questions that have been answered over and over. I almost fell off my chair I laughed so hard.
////Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center...////
This is a classic example of the dimness of the ct types. He read this and buy it hook line and sinker and does not realize it contradicts his own assertions. Why cut back on security but then install bulletproof windows and fireproof doors? Why plan for a aerial attack that no one is supposed to know will happen? And of course there are all these bombs in the building,,, so what do the bulletproof windows and fireproof doors do again? Now that is dumb.
And JIM MARRS??????? If you read marrs and even give what he says an ounce of validity you should go out and get a big SUCKER tattoo across your forehead, This guy is the king of crackpots with his aliens, Roswell, trilateral commissions, chemtrails and countless other paranormal claptrap.
But be honest Swing.... This is the kind of guy you are, like most of the truthers you are a loser who buys every conspiracy that come along, ALiens? Sure thing... Area 51? Government cover-up..... ESP? Yep.... Whats your star sign? The more mysterious the better, You into it all. Too ignorant to know when you are being sold a bill of good disguised as truth.
/////I work with a construction engineer and a man with a degree in physics. Both what I consider experts in their relevant fields////
So then why does this guy work with you at McDonalds? Surly a guy like you does not hold a job where any kind of decision making skill is required. Exactly what are his credentials? What has he built lately?
Because this is the kind of experts we are talking about, people who have built skyscrapers. Demolition experts who HAVE imploded massive structures, NOT Some DUDE you worked with. I would be willing to bet the QUALITY of the experts who support the official story far outweighed the sudo experts of the truthers.
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Steve, it's not all that surprising - he's a True Believer. For him it's no longer about discovering the truth; rather it's about preaching the gospel to all who will listen. He NEEDS to believe in the conspiracy - it's the only thing that gives his life meaning. You'll never see religious fundamentalists changing their minds about ANYTHING. In fact, I've often heard the truly religious claim that the biggest flaw in science is that "it changes it's mind all the time". People with his mindset will continue to have faith in the literal truth of their beliefs until the day they die, regardless of what anyone says to them.
I really can't add much more to that Alex, it just boggles the mind
Wow the evil American government now employs suicide bombers! No, we employ homicide bombers.
Really? People are recruited by the American government to give up their lives while they kill more Americans? Can you get any more bizarre?
this verified by a friend who served in Iraq, showed me pics..
Yeah, no doubt.
And please, don't confuse morals and ethics (evil American government) for political realism
A government that offs it's own people (according to you imbeciles) isn't evil? Oh yeah, I forgot. Not only do you think 9/11 was an inside job, you think it was a good thing.
Spare the pretense of objectivity, conspiracy nuts such as yourself are always powered by emotion, not fact, because you can't come up with facts to prove you point.
6.Trite I'm not sure what your saying there pal. Your lumping a whole lot of people into a post that doesn't quite make sense.
My post was written in clear, simple English, and followed logically from the preceding discussion. Your inability to grasp the simple point presented therein further illustrates the extent to which your brain is malfunctioning. You should look into getting it replaced.
Furthermore:
That being said, IMHO, it doesn't take 1000's to partake in a conspiracy.
Watergate, no.
9/11, yes.
The difference is the complexity of the plot.
you try to disprove the conspiracy by pointing to POTENTIAL problems with the number of people, be it leaks, whistleblowers, etc.
Your side is the one that's constantly adding to the size of the conspiracy. Every time somebody tells you you're full of shit, you call them a disinfo shill, Neocon, NWO agent, or whatever. Not to mention the throng of humanity that would be required to make the various MIHOP scenarios work.
This number of people is an inherent -- and fatal -- flaw in your side's position on 9/11. We are correct to point it out, and will continue to do so.
SteveW Care to point out the 'debunked' part?
Truthy One you confuse fireproofing and bullet proof windows with bomb sniffing dogs. Two, did you consider placing your point on a timeline to compare the two? Probably not.
Next, you mention an aerial attack that no one knew about. Doesn't that contradict the OS...the failure to imagine? Nevermind I know the answer. What better way to plant those explosives than during a security upgrade? Sounds plausible to me.
I'm starting to think your a complete moron. Lets take a look at this example...
So then why does this guy work with you at McDonalds? Surly a guy like you does not hold a job where any kind of decision making skill is required. Exactly what are his credentials? What has he built lately? The individuals I mentioned I used as examples of professionals in their field that did not know WTC 7 had collapsed. My co-workers and their level of education far surpasses your own as your reasoning skills display. Yet you want to try to turn it into a personal attack because I essentially destroyed your previous post. I'm inclined to believe your level of education matches exactly those that work at Wal-Mart.
As far as Jim Marrs goes, did you care to examine his past work in the mainstream? Or the fact that his work on JFK lead to legistlation by the Federal Government? Naww you would rather bring up Aliens and such...things Alex are more tuned into than me.
As far as UFOs are concerned, you can examine governments position
around the world, including our own, for that matter. And really until you read the book, your statements about Marrs mean as much as the shit I leave in the toilet each morning.
A government that offs it's own people (according to you imbeciles) isn't evil?
I suppose you deny the EPA report as well? Perhaps the Tuskegee Experiment too? Wow, and I'm the denier.
Every time somebody tells you you're full of shit, you call them a disinfo shill, Neocon, NWO agent, or whatever.
I would greatly appreciate linking or reposting where I have done exactly that or else I would have to state that you are truly full of shit.
Alex Did you see the History Channel's examination of Canada's Roswell? I thought you might enjoy that if you saw it. I'm interested to see if Truthy disagrees with your own government's position on UFO's.
Stevew If you ever get a chance to get your head out of Alex's lap, feel free to contribute something meaningful to the topic at hand. Cause frankly, if I see anymore peter puffing between you and Alex, I think I'm going to puke.
Item's 1-11
Why have you not answered the questions?
Where is your list of comparable to the list that says you are full of crap?
How a detailed explaination to back up your claims and back it up with real experts and scientific evidence that is equal to what has been put fourth by the real experts?
All you have done so far is your usual how to say nothing in 5000 words.
Go ahead and puke you probably need some food anyway
......The individuals I mentioned I used as examples of professionals in their field.....
My point is a guy like you I doubt would every meet anyone with real expertise. In fact like most of the truthers I has had to deal with, you most likely don't do much of anything that require any sort of reasoning skill or decision making responsibility. Unskilled, low IQ and easily suckered into all sorts of woo woo, that is the typical truther.
I asked this of another truther once, would you go into a job interview and use you activities in the 911 truth thing as a selling point of your ability to do the job? NO!!!! was the quick answer.
But why not? Would not your grasp of the true facts of 911 make you a asset to the company? a clear thinker? NO???? Because you know you would be seen as what you are a fuzzy thinker not to trusted with heavy decisions, too easily fooled by bad information.
I on the other hand have no problem at making my views known on 911 truth thing and find the people I work for (not the government) respect my views, I have set more then a few people at work straight on the "truth" scam.
I am not amazed you would buy Jim Marrs books and would also believe in UFOs and other popular mythology. It is part a parcel of the CT mind set, an obsession mystery. It's far more intriguing then reality. The fact the US and Canadian government waste money and time investigating something that has had no genuine proof, does not make it reality.
Personal attack? sure is. People like you degrade the national IQ, are easy targets for scams, quacks medicine and spam emails, and the rest of us suffer paying for your mistakes.
You should really talk to Ann Coulter, Swing. She's constantly trying to prove that Darwin was wrong, and I think your existence would be her strongest case so far.
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