Sunday, March 21, 2010

Scratch a Truther....

Who is Adam Syed? He's a Cincinnati-based 9-11 Truther and violinist. And yes, he's a Holocaust Denier. Check out his review (Kameelyun) at Amazon of a book of Holocaust Denial. I love the opening:

This book reminds me in many ways of David Ray Griffin's 9/11 books....


Indeed.

It was once official orthodoxy that 4 million were murdered at Auschwitz but in 1990 that number was reduced down to 1 million. And so on and so forth. And the 'homicidal gas chambers' as murder weapon has been called into serious question by many people including, notably, German chemist Germar Rudolf, who is currently serving prison time in Germany for his research in which he concludes that these gas chambers, logistically, could never have served for the gassing of large numbers of people. Now, the casual reader might be reading these technical details and wondering "So what? Hitler's regime was still cruel to Jews nonetheless, gas chambers or no." This is true and no serious revisionist denies this. However, as Dalton says at the beginning of Chapter 1, the main "holocaust" of the mid 20th century was World War II, and there were sub-holocausts within it: the hundreds of thousands toasted in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Allied firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg and Cologne, et cetera.


The Auschwitz Gambit is so familiar a lie that Nizkor (a site debunking the Holocaust Deniers) has a special page dedicated to it. And note that none of the "Holocausts" listed above were committed by the Nazis and their allies; no mention of the Holocaust of Lidice or Nanking.

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58 Comments:

At 21 March, 2010 13:01, Anonymous Spud1k said...

Also worth noting that many of the non-axis 'holocausts' are frequently exaggerated by the revisionists:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8574157.stm

 
At 21 March, 2010 14:13, Anonymous Patrick from Cincinnati said...

A greater travesty is his review of "House Cat: How to Keep Your Indoor Cat Sane and Sound."

 
At 21 March, 2010 16:33, Anonymous Marc said...

Lets see. There were 6 million Jews in Europe before WWII that weren't there after WWII...Hmmmm... but because there were - only - 1.1 million murdered at Auschwitz instead of 4 million then the total number needs to be revised downwards...even though those 4 million are not accounted for as still living after WWII...not to mention that the last time anybody saw them alive they were being hustled off by the S.S....

 
At 21 March, 2010 17:53, Blogger Billman said...

Pfft... Marc, You can't make sense here. The troofers then start calling us a "cult" and "liars" and that we "make up" those facts.

 
At 21 March, 2010 18:15, Blogger angrysoba said...

I had missed this but the same Adam Syed quoted an article that said Fujita's been given a slap on the wrist for his 9/11 conpiracy theorizing.

http://911blogger.com/node/22971

According to NagP this story first broke in the Sankei Shinbun which is roughly the equivalent of the Washington Post in Japan in that it's a very serious newspaper.

 
At 21 March, 2010 18:28, Blogger NoIdentity said...

"sub-holocausts," that's a new one! History is replete with mass murder but the Nazis managed to outdo them all in scale and systematic nature of The Holocaust, which is why it gets capitalized and all the other "holocausts" don't. Aerial bombing is pretty ugly but its not anywhere close to rounding up, enslaving and exterminating millions of people deemed to be racially impure. It was also the most meticulously tracked extermination as the laborers were tracked as inventory (remember those tattoos?) which is why Holocaust denial takes a special kind of irrationality.
Squabbling about the numbers is ridiculous, as are comparisons to aerial bombings. But then again, what should one expect from this crowd?

 
At 21 March, 2010 18:56, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Especially painful should be the fact that Prescott Bush's bank financed the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

Of course, denying this doesn't count as "Holocaust denial" in debunker cultist circles.

The wide range of other victims, not Jewish, completely ignored by most neo-conservative-ites also doesn't count as "Holocaust denial" apparently.

Nor does it seem to register that few in the movement take people like Adam Syed seriously, which is why he fled to the "wtcdemolition" blog to pander to the fringe of the truth movement.

Of course, the expected debunker cult rejoinder will likely be: "but you guys are the fringe". Yeah well, whatever.

 
At 21 March, 2010 19:03, Blogger James B. said...

911 Blogger is the fringe of the movement? It is by far the most heavily trafficked website.

 
At 21 March, 2010 19:13, Anonymous Anonymous said...

James B: "911 Blogger is the fringe of the movement? It is by far the most heavily trafficked website."

Me: wtcdemolition.com isn't 911blogger.com, and the only reason Syed is still at 911blogger is because of the "Glasnost" you (or Pat) described here. Even debunkers are welcome these days, so... By the way, by far the biggest conspiracist site on the web is infowars.com....

 
At 21 March, 2010 19:41, Blogger angrysoba said...

He certainly ticks a lot of the same old tired notes:

Holocaust Deniers often love to wheel out Raul Hilberg as an authority when it suits them but feel they can dismiss the rest of his body of work also when it suits them.

Because David Cole is Jewish they can use him as cover from accusations of anti-semitism. But when he recanted his Holocaust denial they can make him into a disinfo shill. Sounds a lot like the 9/11 Truther M.O

The old jibe that Zionists are the same as Nazis.

False equivalences: The Nazis executed millions of men, women and children in a systematic racial extermination? Well that's no different to aerial bombing in a time of war!

I'm surprised he didn't trot out James Banque's allegation that Eisenhower committed a "holocaust" on the German POWs. The first time I ever heard that one was from a Truther and of course the point of that is to say the Allies were no better than the Nazis.

 
At 21 March, 2010 19:44, Blogger angrysoba said...

The wide range of other victims, not Jewish, completely ignored by most neo-conservative-ites also doesn't count as "Holocaust denial" apparently.


The experiences of the Roma in the Holocaust is no doubt a neglected topic and one you could help redress by doing some research on it and publishing your findings. That is you decide not to waste your time on making up 9/11 conspiracy theories and if your finger-wagging isn't simply a pose.

 
At 21 March, 2010 21:06, Anonymous Anonymous said...

angrysoba: "That is you decide not to waste your time on making up 9/11 conspiracy theories and if your finger-wagging isn't simply a pose."

Me: How about that Al Qaeda conspiracy though? Wouldn't somebody have talked? How did they manage to keep it a secret until 9/11? Wouldn't far too many people have been involved? Why attack the United States when the real enemy, according to them, is Israel? Would they really go through all that trouble just to frame Afghanistan?

Just kidding.

 
At 21 March, 2010 22:19, Anonymous Patrick from Cincinnati said...

About Adam Syed -

It's interesting to see how different 911 groups take on different characteristics. In my previous town, the local 911 sillies wore a lot of black, were heavily tattooed and hung out at a hipster bar where they seemed to be the lifeblood - they appeared to be the "two cool for school" lefty hipster types, although they oddly had infowars and other stickers on their cars. Apparently they also like to talk about Jesus a lot. Well, it was Rochester, NY - almost completely brain-drained, so what do you expect.

The Cincinnati truthtards seem to have fallen under the spell of anti-Semitic Holocaust denial. There's a somewhat prominent Holocaust denier in town, who seems nice enough and has appeared on the local inside jobby job cable access show. I imagine that the truthtards were exposed to him and his followers at that very vulnerable time when they were just absorbing 911 truth. The evil Joooos simply became part of the lore.

So poor creepy Adam has fallen into that camp.

Thankfully these people will never amount to anything.

 
At 22 March, 2010 00:18, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Thankfully these people will never amount to anything."

One just moved out the White House last year. Don't misunderestimate these people!

 
At 22 March, 2010 01:45, Blogger chava said...

CinciPat-

Hey, thanks for your dillusional note 'holocaust denial is anti semetic'. It goes to prove your deliberate attempts to misinform. How very Glen Beckish.

Attempting to qualify the amount of dead, be it too high or low, has nothing to do with anti semitism. The issue is accounting and statistics. Typically holocaust deniars/revisionists say nothing about hating jews as thats not the subject matter. Its clarifying numbers and exposing other holocausts.

As it is, when a new guest arrives and reads this site, its purely for entertainment. Do you think intelligent readers in the center are going to believe your immature, unsubstantiated, cynical comments? They dont. Everytime I come here I laugh. The best part about this site is the street thug banter between 5 guys.

I heard your camp has a petition with over 1100 architects and engineers showing the Truther 1200 AE group there engineering evidence is wrong. I also heard 9 physicists from your camp have indicated there is no superthermite in the WTC powder. I didnt think you guys could pull it together, congrats.

This site is a group of followers only reacting, never bringing anything to the table, only critique.

 
At 22 March, 2010 02:05, Blogger Pat said...

Yeah, the Prescott Bush was the banker to the Nazis crap that Webster Tarpley came up with. Never mind that Thiessen was under house arrest for most of the WWII by Hitler's orders or that he bought the bank in the 1920s.

 
At 22 March, 2010 02:23, Blogger easy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 22 March, 2010 02:29, Blogger angrysoba said...

Attempting to qualify the amount of dead, be it too high or low, has nothing to do with anti semitism. The issue is accounting and statistics. Typically holocaust deniars/revisionists say nothing about hating jews as thats not the subject matter. Its clarifying numbers and exposing other holocausts.


Yes, and I suppose most Nazis just like the uniforms, right?

 
At 22 March, 2010 04:44, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said...

'Why attack the United States when the real enemy, according to them, is Israel?'

Read and learn, mong:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

'All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims ...

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."'

 
At 22 March, 2010 06:45, Anonymous Neill said...

"the hundreds of thousands toasted in Hiroshima and Nagasaki"

Toasted? That's hardly respectful language when talking about the deaths of innocent people.

One might even go so far as saying that this guy doesn't actually care about the victims of the incidents he mentions, he just wants to bash the US and UK.

 
At 22 March, 2010 07:32, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

" Anonymous said...
Especially painful should be the fact that Prescott Bush's bank financed the perpetrators of the Holocaust."

Yeah, yeah, yeah....

Another debunked lie.

Now go take you meds and have a nice long nap.

 
At 22 March, 2010 07:40, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

" chava said...
CinciPat-

Hey, thanks for your dillusional note 'holocaust denial is anti semetic'. It goes to prove your deliberate attempts to misinform. How very Glen Beckish."

Holocaust denial is anti-semitic.

End. Full stop.

Oh, and fuck you very much.

"Attempting to qualify the amount of dead, be it too high or low, has nothing to do with anti semitism."

Lowering the number is tanamout to holocaust denial.

Which is anti-semitic.

So who exactly EXAGAERTES the numbers again?

"The issue is accounting and statistics."

No, the issue is anti-semitism.

"Typically holocaust deniars/revisionists say nothing about hating jews as thats not the subject matter."

Yes it is.

"Its clarifying numbers and exposing other holocausts."

No it's not, it's about hating Jews.

" Do you think intelligent readers in the center are going to believe your immature, unsubstantiated, cynical comments?"

The ones that destroy the conspiracy theory nutbags?

For sure.

"Everytime I come here I laugh."

And I throw up a little in my mouth.

 
At 22 March, 2010 07:43, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

"Neill said...
"the hundreds of thousands toasted in Hiroshima and Nagasaki"

Toasted? That's hardly respectful language when talking about the deaths of innocent people."

Hardly "innocent".

Ask the Chinese.

Or the Philipinos.

Or the suvivors of Pearl Harbor.

Or the Bataan Death March.

 
At 22 March, 2010 08:19, Anonymous Arhoolie the Cyber-Hero said...

There's pitiful,ludicrous and insane and then there is the crackpot Commander PornBoy.The sick idiot still doesn't know that the atomic bombs were dropped on the innocent and defenseless citizens of two Japanese cities.No doubt he'd argue that the fact that the Tonkin Gulf incident which triggered the Vietnam War didn't even happen is a plot by Alex Jones to tear down our fair country!!

 
At 22 March, 2010 08:42, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

"Arhoolie the Cyber-Hero said...
There's pitiful,ludicrous and insane and then there is the crackpot Commander PornBoy.The sick idiot still doesn't know that the atomic bombs were dropped on the innocent and defenseless citizens of two Japanese cities.No doubt he'd argue that the fact that the Tonkin Gulf incident which triggered the Vietnam War didn't even happen is a plot by Alex Jones to tear down our fair country!!"


Knock knock knock.....

Anybody in there?

 
At 22 March, 2010 08:56, Blogger GuitarBill said...

Arsehoolie the computer illiterate scribbles, "...No doubt he'd argue that the fact that the Tonkin Gulf incident which triggered the Vietnam War didn't even happen is a plot by Alex Jones to tear down our fair country!!"

Care to diagram that sentence for us, Einstein?

 
At 22 March, 2010 08:56, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said...

'sick idiot still doesn't know that the atomic bombs were dropped on the innocent and defenseless citizens of two Japanese cities.'

Walt seems to have forgotten that there was something of a World War going on at the time.

 
At 22 March, 2010 09:07, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

"Care to diagram that sentence for us, Einstein?"

Oh, no, GB.

You'd end up with a black hole leading directly to Teh Stoooopid Universe!

 
At 22 March, 2010 13:34, Anonymous Arhoolie the Cyber-Hero said...

The extremely weathered SackBlisters forgets that there are still people in London,Liverpool and all over the UK who are still outraged and bitter over the bombing of civilians in WWII by the Nazis.Hell,what the Luftwaffe did to England actually pales in comparison with what the Alliance visited on German and Japanese civilians at the end (there's your cue,grenade lobbing whackjobs),and that's saying something.

 
At 22 March, 2010 15:49, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said...

'The extremely weathered SackBlisters forgets that there are still people in London,Liverpool and all over the UK who are still outraged and bitter over the bombing of civilians in WWII by the Nazis.'

Oh yes, Walt. I forget you spent 3 years in my country (which I presume was before OIF). Bit of a shame you never learnt a fucking thing while you were there.

'Hell,what the Luftwaffe did to England'

It's called the United Kingdom for a reason, fucknuts.

'actually pales in comparison with what the Alliance visited on German and Japanese civilians at the end (there's your cue,grenade lobbing whackjobs),and that's saying something.'

Well, seeing as we didn't set up death camps (which many truthers believe did not exist), and seeing as we didn't do what the Germans did to the citizens of Warsaw, or the Japanese did to the citizens of Nanking and Manila, this sort of begs the question -

What's
Your
Fucking
Point
You
War
Dodging
Fantasist
Cunt?

22 March, 2010 13:34

 
At 22 March, 2010 17:30, Blogger ConsDemo said...

Attempting to qualify the amount of dead, be it too high or low, has nothing to do with anti semitism.

Right. It's also just mere coincidence that all Holocaust Deniers claim Jews are part of an international conspiracy to dominate the word.

 
At 22 March, 2010 17:43, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

".Hell,what the Luftwaffe did to England actually pales in comparison with what the Alliance visited on German and Japanese civilians at the end"

I had an uncle who flew 27 missions in a B-17 in the ETO during WW II.

I can't tell you how proud I was to have him in our family.

 
At 22 March, 2010 18:19, Anonymous Marc said...

Jeez, first off Hiroshima was legitamate military target. We would have bombed Tokyo but there realy wasn't anything left to bomb as we had already fire-bombed it.

Nagasaki was also a legit target, and the reason that we bombed that city was because the Japanese were too slow to surrender. Plus, there was an ettempted coup that could have stretched the war out longer had the plotters won (hey, a real conspiracy!!).

Holocaust deniers are anti-Semetic, and their ultimate target is Israel. Because the Palestinians were allies with Nazi Germany, the deniers need to void the holocaust in order to de-legitimze the existance for Israel.

That some of these same turds turn around and accuse the US of actions equal to the holocaust while defending the Nazis should tell you all that you need to know about them.

 
At 22 March, 2010 19:00, Anonymous Fucktard Patrol said...

"Hell,what the Luftwaffe did to England actually pales in comparison with what the Alliance visited on German and Japanese civilians at the end"

Good, maybe they won't forget what they started.

Maybe the can pass they feeling along to several generations of offspring so they won't forget either.

Walt - you're a self loathing piece of shit. (and a Jewish one too!).

 
At 22 March, 2010 19:09, Blogger Billman said...

The extremely weathered SackBlisters forgets that there are still people in London,Liverpool and all over the UK who are still outraged and bitter over the bombing of civilians in WWII by the Nazis.Hell,what the Luftwaffe did to England actually pales in comparison with what the Alliance visited on German and Japanese civilians at the end (there's your cue,grenade lobbing whackjobs),and that's saying something.

Having been to the Edo museum in Tokyo, I was MORTIFIED at what the allies had done to the city during fire-boming raids during WWII. I was pretty sobering stuff.

So Arhoolie is a little right on this one, in some respects. However, don't forget Arhoolie, that the Japanese were pretty sadistic themselves throughout their own history towards China and other cultures. Far worse than anything the U.S. did to them later (with the exception of the Atomic Bombs) Look up what they did to Shanghai.

But then again, Japan taught thier students that Pearl Harbor was a revenge bombing for the A-Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (despite the over 3 year difference in time) until the late 80's...

 
At 22 March, 2010 19:24, Blogger angrysoba said...

But then again, Japan taught thier students that Pearl Harbor was a revenge bombing for the A-Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (despite the over 3 year difference in time) until the late 80's...

Really?

 
At 22 March, 2010 20:09, Blogger NoIdentity said...


Hey, thanks for your dillusional note 'holocaust denial is anti semetic'.


Wait wait wait... is this guy seriously trying to claim that holocaust denial is not antisemitic? This is a new low even for the nuts that frequent this blog. Its just arguing over accounting!

The issue is accounting and statistics. Typically holocaust deniars/revisionists say nothing about hating jews as thats not the subject matter.

Holocaust deniers are typically disingenuous psychopaths who know that if they start ranting about ZOG from the start they will lose their audience so they pretend that they just care about the "Truth." That MO sounds vaguely familiar...
If you deny the holocaust you're implying that Jews are lying about the mass murder of their brethren. That's a pretty harsh accusation for a group you pretend not to hate. Seriously I never thought anyone would actually defend Holocaust deniers!

As far as Hiroshima and Nagasaki go, the alternative would have been to
A. Invade Japan
B. Impose a blockade
Option A would have resulted in countless American and Allied deaths and possibly allowed the Soviets to gain a foothold in Japan as they did in Germany. Option B would have killed millions instead of hundreds of thousands of Japanese through starvation.
Yes the atomic bombs were unbelievably horrific. I've been to Peace Park in Hiroshima and seen the museum there. I, and I'm sure many people, have mixed feelings about the use of the nuclear bombs. But it's too easy to criticize leaders in a war fought 60 years ago with hindsight bias.
And no matter what you think about it, there is simply NO comparison between the bombings and what the Nazis did.

 
At 22 March, 2010 21:14, Blogger angrysoba said...

I have to wonder what school kids are taught in South Korea, when this kind of stuff is put up on the classroom walls.

I've seen this type of thing before. Some of it goes up on subway walls.

Korean kids seem to learn English faster than kids in Japan.

 
At 23 March, 2010 06:21, Blogger Billman said...

Angrysoba, I only really heard that from people I worked with on the ship while I was in Japan, and I think cracked.com did an article that mentioned that as well. But it could still be bullshit...

 
At 23 March, 2010 10:34, Anonymous New Yorker said...

The wide range of other victims, not Jewish, completely ignored by most neo-conservative-ites also doesn't count as "Holocaust denial" apparently.

"neo-conservative-ites"? Less drugs before you post next time, OK?

Also, yes, there were millions more (like Soviet POWs, Roma, homosexuals, etc.) murdered in the death camps. 20 million Soviet citizens died in World War II. 10 million Chinese did too. These are well-known facts to anyone without an axe to grind and a level of intelligence above that of your average kangaroo rat (i.e., not you).

Of course, the expected debunker cult rejoinder will likely be: "but you guys are the fringe". Yeah well, whatever.

Well, you are the fringe. You're a subscriber to lunatic conspiracy theories about holocaust denial and 9/11 "truth".

Anyway, want to discuss the 30 million Soviets and Chinese who died? Or is that inconvenient because Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were responsible for those deaths instead of your US and UK boogeymen?

 
At 23 March, 2010 13:49, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

The Rape of Nanking:

"The Nanking Massacre or Nanjing Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was a six-week period following the Japanese capture of the city of Nanjing (Nanking), the former capital of the Republic of China, on December 13, 1937. During this period, hundreds of thousands of civilians were murdered and 20,000–80,000 women were raped [1] by soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army"

"The International Military Tribunal of the Far East estimates 260,000 casualties; China's official estimate is 300,000 casualties, based on the evaluation of the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal. Japanese historians estimate a lower death toll, in the vicinity of 100,000–200,000."

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Nanking

 
At 23 March, 2010 15:04, Blogger NoIdentity said...

If you really want to see how poor and innocent the Japanese were look up "Unit 731".
I love Japan and the Japanese, but Jesus Christ, they did some bad shit back then.

As far as the other victims of the Holocaust go, I haven't been to the Holocaust Museum in a while but the last time I was there I remember seeing exhibits about the Homosexuals, "communists," Poles, cripples etc. who were killed. Anyone deemed untermenchen went to the camps but the vast majority of them were Jews. And it was European Jews who lost a huge fraction of their population, something like 1/3rd of Europe's Jews were killed. The Netherlands lost 75% of their Jews.
Point bein, the notion that the Jews somehow hog all the attention paid to the Holocaust is a ridiculous canard.

 
At 23 March, 2010 16:22, Blogger angrysoba said...

Angrysoba, I only really heard that from people I worked with on the ship while I was in Japan, and I think cracked.com did an article that mentioned that as well. But it could still be bullshit...

There have been a number of controversies about the way World War Two is taught in Japanese schools. Recently there was a "text-book scandal" in which some of the books had been revised to soften or ommit references to Nanking etc... and the Japanese government's been responsible for quite a lot of foot dragging on the "comfort women" issue.

I had just never heard that one about Pearl Harbor being revenge for the atomic bombings which would require some major contortions of history that don't seem possible in Japan and I have never met anyone here with that idea.

In fact, the movie Pearl Harbor was quite popular here in Japan as was Bridge on the River Kwai according to Ian Buruma.

I'd say on balance most people just don't have much knowledge (or interest) in the war with the exception of the nationalists who have a mini revisionist-history industry.

 
At 23 March, 2010 18:29, Blogger NoIdentity said...

Pearle Harbour was in response to our oil embargo.
It was pretty effective at scaring the crap out of us but failed to destroy our aircraft carriers. If they had sunk our carriers the war could have ended very differently.

 
At 23 March, 2010 18:34, Blogger angrysoba said...

Pearle Harbour

Whoah! It's usually me who gets shit for that!

 
At 23 March, 2010 18:46, Blogger Lazarus Long said...

" NoIdentity said...
Pearle Harbour was in response to our oil embargo.
It was pretty effective at scaring the crap out of us but failed to destroy our aircraft carriers. If they had sunk our carriers the war could have ended very differently."

I don't think so.

The quote attributed to Adm. Yamamato, "I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" pretty much sums up the reality of the relative strength of the two countries, and the outcome was, IMHO, pretty much inevitable.

Has anyone seen any of the new HBO series "The Pacific"?

The question echoing through my mind is how the US Marines, which realistically was a pretty green outfit, took on the might of the Imperial Japanese Army, a battle harded cadre with years of fighting experience, sky high morale, and sometimes even a numerical advantage, took them on and beat them, totally and completely.

 
At 23 March, 2010 20:56, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lazarus Long: "I don't think so."

Me: Are you familiar with Robert Stinnet's book "Day of Deceit"? That book, full of new information obtained by FOIA requests, sheds a whole new light on the Pearl Harbour attacks, one that you will probably fiercely disapprove of.

 
At 24 March, 2010 07:01, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said...

'Are you familiar with Robert Stinnet's (sic) book "Day of Deceit"?'

I am, and there's four minor flaws with his 'foreknowledge' thesis:

(1) He doesn't actually prove that the Kido Butai broke radio silence.
(2) He doesn't actually prove that US Army or Navy SIGINT DF'd them.
(3) He doesn't prove that officials in Washington DC suppressed evidence of propositions (1) and (2), and
(4) He can't explain why setting up the US Pacific Fleet for destruction would achieve FDR's goal of a pretext for war with Nazi Germany.

But apart from that, there's nothing to worry about at all.

 
At 24 March, 2010 17:41, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sackcloth and ashes: okay, thanks for those insights. Although I do think the Pearl Harbor attack would be a pretext for war, after it actually became one, didn't it?

And what about those deliberate provocations to the Japanese, proposed to Roosevelt?

 
At 24 March, 2010 18:28, Blogger angrysoba said...

Although I do think the Pearl Harbor attack would be a pretext for war, after it actually became one, didn't it?


The point is that Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. The US didn't use Pearl Harbor as an excuse to declare war on Germany.

FDR did want to join the war against Germany but it is mind-boggingly quixotic in the extreme for FDR to have allowed the Japanese to smash the Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor on the off-chance that a war with Japan would precipitate a war with Germany.

If this was FDR's gamble the US could have ended up fighting a war with Japan it didn't want with a badly crippled navy and no "bonus" of a war with Germany.

 
At 25 March, 2010 06:10, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said...

'And what about those deliberate provocations to the Japanese, proposed to Roosevelt?'

What 'deliberate provocations' were those? Telling them to pull their troops out of China and (after September 1940) French Indochina?

And perhaps from your extensive research into the Japanese archives you can explain why there's no reference to the 'provocations' Stinnett mentions as being a cause for war.

 
At 25 March, 2010 11:42, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sackcloth and ashes: "What 'deliberate provocations' were those? Telling them to pull their troops out of China and (after September 1940) French Indochina?"

Me: Well, I'm referring to the McCollum memo...

sackcloth and ashes: "And perhaps from your extensive research into the Japanese archives you can explain why there's no reference to the 'provocations' Stinnett mentions as being a cause for war."

Me: Have you researched the entire Japanese war archives? I find that a little hard to believe.. there may well be some important clues in there! Well, I must admit I haven't considered this and from the official account, we know that Japan simply wanted to smash the US fleet so they could have their way in Asia without US interference, only to discover later that the US had no intention to intervene anyway..

But... keeping the US fleet in Hawaii was part of the McCollum memo, and then there is this document by Japanese analysts, created at the request of the US, in a post-war effort to catalog Japanese war records..

http://ibiblio.org/pha/monos/152/152chap2.html

Apparently, there are some intersections with the McCollum memo there, and this is just after a cursory Google search and a quick glance..

 
At 26 March, 2010 00:25, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve"
Yes this was a great quote from Tora! Tora! Tora! but it has no source in reality. It was an excellent film thought!

 
At 26 March, 2010 01:23, Blogger Boris Epstein said...

And why is questioning historical narratives a problem? The truth only gets reinforced with future findings; hence if you've got truth on your side you've got nothing to fear.

As for the Holocaust - OK, let's say it turns out that not 6 million Jews (and a half-million Gypsies if memory serves) were slaughtered but, say, only 4 million. Does that make it any less morally reprehensible?

 
At 26 March, 2010 02:47, Blogger angrysoba said...

And why is questioning historical narratives a problem? The truth only gets reinforced with future findings; hence if you've got truth on your side you've got nothing to fear.


There's nothing wrong with it if you play by the rules of legitimate historical research. People such as Zundel, Irving and others do not.

As for the Holocaust - OK, let's say it turns out that not 6 million Jews (and a half-million Gypsies if memory serves) were slaughtered but, say, only 4 million. Does that make it any less morally reprehensible?

No. But the canard made by Holocaust deniers is that they are merely humble scholars asking legitimate questions when they are in fact producing propaganda. They are not offering anything in terms of increasing the understanding of historians they work like defence lawyers for the Nazis desperately attempting to get their clients off on the grounds of "reasonable doubt". They seem to believe that if they can undermine only one particular aspect thent the all the rest of the evidence for the Holocaust will somehow disappear.


There are debates within Holocaust scholarship such as those between Goldhagen and Browning.

In terms of numbers of victims, there were large discrepencies early on but due to later scholarship the figure has become more or less settled. So Hilberg, for example, estimated about 5.1 million victims but the number has been revised upwards as more victims came to light. These days, anyone advocating a figure of anything lower than Hilberg's figures would be considered history's equivalent of a flat-Earther. A Holocaust denier.

 
At 26 March, 2010 02:54, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said...

Anonymous, my PhD supervisor was a Japanese-born academic who was one of the finest scholars of 20th century international history that ever walked. If there'd have been any evidence of Stinnett's propositions in the former Imperial Japanese military and Foreign Ministry archives she would have found it. She didn't. What does that tell you?

 
At 26 March, 2010 07:35, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sackcloth and ashes: "Anonymous, my PhD supervisor was a Japanese-born academic who was one of the finest scholars of 20th century international history that ever walked. If there'd have been any evidence of Stinnett's propositions in the former Imperial Japanese military and Foreign Ministry archives she would have found it. She didn't. What does that tell you?"

Me: That you are appealing to authority, to try to refute hard documentation and witness testimony from the Japanese themselves. I don't understand why you would do such a thing, unless you simply had difficulty coming to terms with the fact that some of the provocations outlined in the McCollum memo indeed contributed to the Japanese decision to attack Pearl Harbor.

The fact that such provocations were even proposed, reveals that there was a desire for war with the Japanese. Stinnett's case may not be definitive, but in my opinion, the man has a point. Besides, the documents he unearthed alone are rich additions to the historical record.

Anyways, I'll agree to disagree. I'm sure there are many ways to interpret the memo and its consequences.

 
At 26 March, 2010 07:49, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said...

'unless you simply had difficulty coming to terms with the fact that some of the provocations outlined in the McCollum memo indeed contributed to the Japanese decision to attack Pearl Harbor.'

There's that worrying lack of something I call 'evidence' that bothers me. Unless you - or any other revisionist - can produce archival material from the Japanese proving that these 'provocations' led to Pearl Harbor, then you have dick.

'The fact that such provocations were even proposed, reveals that there was a desire for war with the Japanese.'

So on the one hand Uncle Sam is preparing for a scrap with Japan, on the other, most of the US Pacific Fleet gets sunk on 7th December 1941.

Do you see a logical flaw there? Because I do.

 

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