Tuesday, October 24, 2006

9-11 Myth & Reality Analysis

A friend of mine who ran a video store once remarked that the only movies that people would watch more than once or twice were the X-rated films.

The paranoid also apparently like their pornography enough to watch it multiple times; about the only "events" the Arizona chapter of 9-11 Denial has are movie marathons. I'm sure they'll be showing 9-11 Myth & Reality.

This movie has nothing new; no claims of nuclear explosions in the basement or Star Wars weapons in the bathtub. Instead we get the usual "questions", delivered in a soporific manner. Griffin cites Hopsicker as proving that Mohammed Atta liked cocaine, alcohol, pork and lap dances, although of course Hopsicker's source for that, Amanda Keller, has come clean and admitted that she wasn't Atta's girlfriend.

The movie consists of two lectures Griffin gave this year. The first one covers nine supposed 9-11 Myths that he "debunks":

1. Our political and military leaders simply would not due such a thing. Griffin highlights the usual talking points on this: Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Northwoods, etc.

2. Our political and military leaders would have had no motive for orchestrating the 9/11 attacks. Again, no surprises here. Griffin claims that there is a common dream among neocons for a "Pax Americana". The PNAC comes in for their usual mention of desiring a "New Pearl Harbor".

3. Such a big operation, involving so many people, could not have been kept secret because someone involved in it would have talked by now. Griffin mentions some government operations that were kept secret, including the Manhattan Project and the War in Indonesia in 1957 which the American government supposedly started and kept secret until 1995.

4. The 9/11 Commission, which has endorsed the official account, was an independent, impartial commission and hence can be believed. Griffin claims there were "serious conflicts of interest for many of the members of the commission, and highlights Phillip Zelikow's supposed conflict since he was "essentially a member of the Bush-Cheney Administration".

5. The Bush Administration provided proof that the attacks were carried out by Al Qaeda terrorists under the direction of Osama bin Laden. Griffin notes that a bag checked through by Atta apparently did not make it on Flight 11 and contained much incriminating evidence including his will. Griffin asks why would Atta have brought along his will on the plane he planned to fly into the World Trade Center. This is a reasonable point. Not so reasonable is Griffin's use of Hopsicker's claims that Atta liked cocaine, alcohol, pork and lap dances. He claims that the Taliban offered to turn Osama over to us if we provided evidence that he was involved in the WTC; considering that they hadn't handed him over when we had proof that he was involved in the embassy bombings in Africa, this is a bit much. We get the usual nonsense about the hijackers not being on the flight manifests, and the claim that Osama was in an American hospital in Dubai.

6. The 9/11 attacks came as a surprise to the Bush Administration. Griffin quotes the FBI Director saying there was no evidence than anyone in the US other than the hijackers knew of the plot. Griffin brings up the put options. Yawn, how many times do these things have to be debunked? Griffin also brings up the nonsense about how Bush should have bolted from the classroom as soon as he heard about the second plane into the towers. I agree that he should not have remained there, but of course Griffin is trying to imply that Bush only stayed there because he "knew" it was safe.

(I'll try to finish up the "myths" in a later post.

Two minor points: Griffin does a poor job of making air quotes with his fingers every time he quotes somebody. This becomes unbelievably annoying after about the 50th time. And second, this crowd looks like it's got plenty of Geritol in the medicine chest:



For those of us accustomed to thinking of 9-11 Deniers as young louts in black tee shirts, this should be a wakeup call.

29 Comments:

At 25 October, 2006 08:24, Blogger SFC B said...

I wonder how many of them are Sun City residents who simply wanted a place to go be with other people.

This is AZ, it's possible that several of them were taken there by the retirement center shuttle bus, and were very, very upset that the movie viewing they were promised turned out to be in some motel's conference room.

 
At 25 October, 2006 08:30, Blogger Jujigatami said...

Don't kid yourself.

The CT population is NOT all kids.

Its spread somewhat evenly between ignorant kids and senile elders.

 
At 25 October, 2006 08:33, Blogger Swing Dangler said...

Well what this post fails to mention about Keller is the description of numerous witnesses of FBI harrassment and intimidation surrounding the relationship. It is one of those...lets report on what fits our perogative deals. Come on James and Pat, tell the whole story!
By not doing so you use the same tactics that CT'ers like to use.
http://www.madcowprod.com/index44bb.html

For Keller to be discredited, all of the witnesses to her and Atta's relationship must also be discredited as well. Do the research and you will certainly question the article that reports that Keller lied. What is left out in the article is:
1. Why did she come out now and state she is lying?
2. What was her motivation for lying in the first place?
3. Was she harrassed and intimidated by the FBI to change her story? Answer, Yes! Why had she remained silent? Keller: "Because of the intimidation by the FBI,” she replied. “They told me not to talk to anybody, to keep my mouth shut."
See the link above.
4. How does she explain all of the eyewitnesses to her relationship with Atta?
5. Who was the Fed that questioned Keller to get that response?

See, the paper in question did no such follow up which is rather suspect considering the importance of the news item being covered.

 
At 25 October, 2006 09:25, Blogger Alex said...

Ah, yes, FBI intimidation's just brutal these days. Why just yesterday I had 3 of their goons show up at my house. They kicked over my garbage can, roughed up my cat, and then took a dump on my garden. It's brutal! I'll say anything they want me to, I just want this to stop!

 
At 25 October, 2006 09:33, Blogger tym said...

For Keller to be discredited, all of the witnesses to her and Atta's relationship must also be discredited as well. Do the research and you will certainly question the article that reports that Keller lied. What is left out in the article is:
1. Why did she come out now and state she is lying?
2. What was her motivation for lying in the first place?
3. Was she harrassed and intimidated by the FBI to change her story? Answer, Yes! Why had she remained silent? Keller: "Because of the intimidation by the FBI,” she replied. “They told me not to talk to anybody, to keep my mouth shut."
See the link above.
4. How does she explain all of the eyewitnesses to her relationship with Atta?
5. Who was the Fed that questioned Keller to get that response?



The eyewitness reports are extremely sketchy at best regarding this whole thing. Moreover, it doesn't disprove much of anything.

Ever hear of "Takfiri"? It's basically a sect of islamic terror groups that believe people on missions to murder non-Muslims are allowed to violate Islamic law in order to blend in and allow them to carry out their mission.

Al Qaeda was all about this, as it's best not to attract attention to the operatives who are on the verge of committing a mass murder.

Moreover, so many of the reports are so conflicting about Amanda Keller's story, that it's really hard to know what holds up and what doesn't.

There's also a serious credibility lapse to her. What was her motivation? Well, she was a stripper. If there's a profession on this planet for people with a greater need for attention and validation, I'd like to hear it.

 
At 25 October, 2006 09:41, Blogger Jujigatami said...

If it were me, the only way I could ever be talked into killing myself for anything s to be promised all the hookers, drinks, and blow I could stand before I did the deed.

Oh, and add in the fact that I can do all of this and then still get in to heaven where I'll get 72 virgins, it might become something worth considering.

 
At 25 October, 2006 10:05, Blogger James B. said...

Well, she was a stripper. If there's a profession on this planet for people with a greater need for attention and validation, I'd like to hear it.

Politicians, and conspiracy theorists. ;-)

 
At 25 October, 2006 10:19, Blogger tym said...

Is it a sad commentary that Atta and others could've experienced the height of American debauchery and still hated us and wanted to kill us?

I've noticed in downward decline in the quality of "the american stripper" for quite some time and an appalling lack of standards in the cocaine quality getting into this country since the war on drugs got stepped up.

Isn't it time we go after the REAL people responsible for 9/11? Bad strippers, bartenders who water down the drinks, and coke dealers with subpar product.

 
At 25 October, 2006 10:24, Blogger shawn said...

These are probably the same old people that give money every year to the IHR to keep it running.

If you catch my drift.

 
At 25 October, 2006 10:25, Blogger CHF said...

Are the twoofers at some point going to actually READ the PNAC document? It makes no mention of "desiring a New Pearl Harbor."

 
At 25 October, 2006 10:41, Blogger Swing Dangler said...

Nice way of not addressing the issue. I suspected as much out of you Alex.

The eyewitness reports are extremely sketchy at best regarding this whole thing.
I would suggest reading the book Terrorland before making such comments and viewing the video. What do they prove? Simply that Keller and Atta were a couple.

Moreover, so many of the reports are so conflicting about Amanda Keller's story, that it's really hard to know what holds up and what doesn't.
They aren't sketchy at all. Read the book. Read her comments. View her video interview, they are very clear.

Her occupation has nothing to do with her credibilty. The style over substance fallacy will not suffice in this discussion.

Ever hear of "Takfiri"? Yes I have and what evidence do you provide to support that Atta and his operatives were members of such sect?

I'm also not suprised at the responses littered with humor and sarcasm regarding the facts of the issue. That seems to be the response when there is proof that strange things are afoot with the Keller/Atta/conspiracy in South Florida issue.
Nothing to see here, move along sheeple.

 
At 25 October, 2006 11:37, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For Keller to be discredited, all of the witnesses to her and Atta's relationship must also be discredited as well.

ok. Name those witnesses. What is this testimony, exactly? By exactly I mean I want direct quotes and a source for context; not a summary of the quote, not a portion of the whole quote.

1. Why did she come out now and state she is lying?

You can answer that for yourself.

2. What was her motivation for lying in the first place?

You can answer that for yourself.

3. Was she harrassed and intimidated by the FBI to change her story? Answer, Yes! Why had she remained silent?

Keller: "Because of the intimidation by the FBI,” she replied. “They told me not to talk to anybody, to keep my mouth shut."
See the link above.


So she defied FBI intimidation to speak out, but was intimidated years later into recanting. No. She lied, she wanted to move on with her life, she told the truth.

4. How does she explain all of the eyewitnesses to her relationship with Atta?

What eyewitnesses? I've seen madcowprod.com before, it's not credible. The New York Times is credible. I'd accept even a local newspaper article from Keller's home. Give me names and quotes of her neighbors positively identifying Mohammed Atta. Consider the seriousness of the charge (that a woman was sleeping with a future mass-murderer) and provide real evidence.

5. Who was the Fed that questioned Keller to get that response?

Can you rephrase this so it makes sense?

See, the paper in question did no such follow up which is rather suspect considering the importance of the news item being covered.

Actually, no, it's not all that important. For all I know she really did date Atta, and he really did love wine, women and pork. Who cares? I'm pretty sure mass murder is against Islam, too. In fact, I think that Allah probably frowns on killing 3,000 people more than he frowns on lap dances and eating bacon. Didn't stop Atta, did it?

Having considered the real evidence from real news sources (not Conspiracy Theory Daily) with no incentive to exaggerate, I've come to the reasonable conclusion she was lying about Atta. Do the research, you'll see.

 
At 25 October, 2006 12:57, Blogger shawn said...

Yes I have and what evidence do you provide to support that Atta and his operatives were members of such sect?

They flew planes into buildings full of people who didn't follow their own desire for an Islamist caliphate.

That's takfiri.

 
At 25 October, 2006 13:04, Blogger Swing Dangler said...

Question Rephrased
What Federal Agent made this statement to the newspaper that is linked to in this post?

"There's nothing there to corroborate the relationship between the two," a New York-based FBI counterterrorism agent said recently after reviewing 9/11 case files.
The agent got clearance to talk from the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI, but only agreed if his named was not used.



Relationship/FBI Harrassment Witnesses
Witness: Stephanie Frederickson, a pleasant 50-year old housewife who made the grave mistake of living in an apartment beside the apartment that Mohamed Atta moved into with Amanda Keller.

“At first, right after the attack, they (the FBI) told me I must have been mistaken in my identification," Frederickson stated. “Then they would insinuate that I was lying. Finally they stopped trying to get me to change my story. After that they just stopped by once a week to make sure I hadn’t been talking to anyone. Frederickson shrugged. "Who was I going to tell? Everybody around here already knew.”

Second Witness: The Sandpiper Apartments manager, Charlie Grapentine, is a grizzled Korean vet in his early 60’s. "Atta always carried a fanny pack around his waist,” Grapentine told us. "I remember Amanda once telling him that she needed some new clothes, and he reached in and peeled off a few hundreds from a thick roll of cash he had stuffed inside the fanny pack.” "They called me a liar, and told me to keep my mouth shut," stated the ex-marine through clenched teeth. “Nobody likes to hear that: that they didn't see something they know they saw.”

The two quotes above totally contradict the FBI Agents own statement!

Burke, you state the Mad Cow Morning News is not credible. What evidence do you provide to support that statment? Please provide it ! I will hold you accountable to my requests. I have proven what I have stated and provided exactly what you requested. Although you could have read it yourself.

You stand by the credibility of the New York Times?

...the most-publicized recent incident was the Jayson Blair scandal. Blair was a young Times reporter who, in the words of The New York Times’ own investigation, “fabricated comments, concocted scenes and lifted material from other newspapers and wire services; also he selected details from photographs to create [the] impression he had been somewhere or seen someone, when he had not.”

Why does the NY Times have to apology for their pre-war coverage of the Iraq War?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/international/middleeast/26FTE_NOTE.html?ex=1107320400&en=ab7c5fc0b2d52eb4&ei=5070&pagewanted=print&position=

Do I have to bring up Judith Miller and the NYT?

Why is a Panel at The Times set to proposes steps to increase credibility? http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70A1EF73E540C7A8CDDAC0894DD404482

Now explain to me again how you consider this newspaper credible? Explain to me again why there is declining readership? Explain to me again why Mad Cow Morning News is not credible when the guy actually did some investigative reporting!?

See Burke, this alone explains why your 'trial' blog will never get off the ground and is a complete waste of you and your blog viewers time.
You provide unsupported statements, dubious claims, and accept no facts or information that conflict with your world view and your version of events. And when they do, you cry foul because it was not from a corporate entitiy or a 'nationally known' publication, or an alphabet agency. I encourage you to perchance read the reports at Mad Cow Morning News, not just 'glance' at it. I encourage you to read the book and view the videos there. That is the type of investigative work that should have been done from day 1. But you chose not to. You won't read or study alternative points of view.
If you did, you would find Hopsickler believes that the 19 did carry out those attacks, unlike many CTs and he points to many Red Hearings within the Truth Movement.

Now, do the research little boy.

 
At 25 October, 2006 13:08, Blogger Swing Dangler said...

They flew planes into buildings full of people who didn't follow their own desire for an Islamist caliphate.

Again, what evidence has been provided? No camera footage of the 19 getting on the planes. No hijackers names on the manifests. No DNA from the Pentagon scene. Only passports that survive massive airline explosions where black boxes do not and a couple of pieces of luggage that had information the hijackers might have needed on the flight. Once again where is the proof?!

 
At 25 October, 2006 13:10, Blogger Triterope said...

The whole "they weren't real Muslims because they ate pork and got lap dances" argument is bullshit anyway.

There was an HBO documentary a few years ago (pre 9/11) about a guy named Mikdad. He was recruited by Hezbollah to do a terror attack in Israel, but the bomb blew up in his face as he was assembling it.

The nights leading up to his scheduled attack, his handlers took him out for drinks, girls, and other debauchery, just like the 9/11 hijackers did in the U.S. I bet if you tracked the last days of other Muslim suicide attackers, you'd find the same pattern.

The lesson here is that the people organizing and executing these attacks aren't mindless drones who follow a well-known set of rules at all times. They are opportunists who bend the rules as needed to advance their overall agenda. If you're willing to die for the cause, the restrictions of Islam aren't so immutable.

 
At 25 October, 2006 13:20, Blogger James B. said...

No hijackers names on the manifests.

Their names were on the manifests, they just weren't on the list of "victims" you guy like to quote.

No DNA from the Pentagon scene.

Out of all the bodies found at the Pentagon, 5 were identified which didn't match up to any of the known victims. Two of them were identified genetically as brothers. Hmm, I wonder what that could mean...

 
At 25 October, 2006 13:36, Blogger Triterope said...

Swing Dangler, a serious question for you:

What is any of this Amanda Keller stuff supposed to prove?

 
At 25 October, 2006 13:44, Blogger CHF said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 25 October, 2006 13:44, Blogger CHF said...

Swing Dangler said...

No camera footage of the 19 getting on the planes.

I've never seen a camera at any boarding gate I've been at. I guess that means I've never been on a plane, huh?

No hijackers names on the manifests.

Lie.

No DNA from the Pentagon scene.

Another lie.

Only passports that survive massive airline explosions where black boxes do no

Passport that was ejected from the crash while the black boxes did not and were crushed by a falling building.

Retards, all of you.

 
At 25 October, 2006 15:21, Blogger Alex said...

I heard that Timothy McVeigh had a hamburger on a Friday once.

That PROVES that he wasn't a Christian bomber!

And his girlfriend got pulled over for speeding two days later!

IT'S FBI INTIMIDATION, MAN!!!

CONSPIRACY!!!!

 
At 25 October, 2006 15:22, Anonymous Anonymous said...

SD-

I'm beginning to think I'm being too generous when I call you guys
conspiracy theorists. To be a conspiracy theorist you should have, well, a conspiracy theory. What you have is a disparate collection of innuendo and ad hominem.

You say I won't look at the evidence. I wouldn't have asked you for the witnesses if I wasn't willing to look at the evidence. I'm just not going to waste my time reading through a bunch of conspiracy propaganda to get to the
actual evidence that supports the claims being made.


Your informal 9/11 investigation has produced enough claims by now that you should be able to present a cogent alternative theory of the crime. My blog won't get off the ground because no conspiracy theorists are willing to justify their accusations.

Now about those witnesses. Here you have 2 people who claim to have been harrassed by the FBI. Great. File a grievance. With all the resources that the conspiracy theorists have you would think someone would stand up for these poor people, instead of just using their testimony to enhance their standing in the truther movement.

By the way, I looked at Hopsicker's credentials. They're actually pretty impressive. Did you know that? If what he claims has any relevance to 9/11 conspiracies I'm sure he won't have any trouble getting his work published in a mainstream media outlet.

 
At 25 October, 2006 15:27, Blogger Alex said...

Passport that was ejected from the crash while the black boxes did not and were crushed by a falling building.

Good point. Here, swingy, I've got an experiment you can perform:

1) Go dig through your recycling box and pull out as much paper as you can get. Cut it into passport sized pieces, and put it in a metal bucket.

2) Grab your computer (just the part that houses the CPU and HD) and bring all that outside.

3) Douse both the papers and the computer in lighter fluid, then light them on fire.

4) Hurl the bucket full of flaming papers at the side of you house. Observe.

5) Hurl the flaming computer case at the side of your house. Observe.

6) Compare notes. You may notice that the papers will quickly spread to your neighbours yard, resulting in him wanting to kick your ass, whereas the computer will pretty much stay where it hit. Make sure you fully document all your observations before buying a new computer and coming on here to bother us again.

 
At 25 October, 2006 17:16, Blogger shawn said...

a couple of pieces of luggage that had information the hijackers might have needed on the flight.

Yeah, 'cause they're gonna go grab their luggage and ruffle through papers to figure out what they should instead of STUDYING AND MEMORIZING THE INFORMATION.

God, you people are so retarded, it's really unbelievable.

"Evidence for their guilt is actually evidence they're innocent!"

When you find Atta, tell us ok? (Oh and try not to get everything wrong on your next post.)

 
At 25 October, 2006 17:57, Blogger Crungy said...

"The whole "they weren't real Muslims because they ate pork and got lap dances" argument is bullshit anyway."

No different then the seemingly hundreds of church affilitated christians that I've seen being brought down by acts of sin.

 
At 26 October, 2006 13:47, Blogger tym said...

Wasn't Atta's luggage deliberately delayed because of the security flag on him when he flew a charter to Logan from Maine earlier in the morning?

 
At 26 October, 2006 17:26, Blogger ConsDemo said...

How many of these elders have turned down their Social Security checks from the government they hate so much?

 
At 30 October, 2006 06:32, Blogger Swing Dangler said...

No hijackers names on the manifests.Lie.
Post the proof and I will retract my statement.

Burke...Now about those witnesses. Here you have 2 people who claim to have been harrassed by the FBI. Great. File a grievance.

I love it! You completely ignore my point about the witnesses contradicting the Federal Agent's claim of no Atta relationship with Keller, but rather you want to play 'saracasm' to continue to ignore it.
NICE JOB BURKE!
That is why it is pointless to argue with folks like yourself. Your mind is made up. No need to look at any other facts or new information. No need to investigate the murder of so many innocent people. Shame on you and your ilk!

Second, you provided no evidence that I asked for to support your press credibility claim yet I provided evidence to crush that statement. Score again for ole Swing!

The reason your 'trial blog' won't float is because YOU select the evidence. How ridiculous.

conspiracy propagandaLOL!
Uh try reading the book and articles. It is investigative journalism!

What is any of this Amanda Keller stuff supposed to prove? Finally a legit question!

Perhaps if there were a criminal investigation into 9/11, Keller would be first on the list to begin the investigation with. From that point perhaps we could determine who was lending material support to these operatives and truly investigate the criminal network behind their actions. Or do you still believe this was directed by cave dwellers in Afghanistan? Wait nevermind, I know the answer.
I would encourage you to read Hopsickelers ongoing investigation into the criminal element in South Florida that lended support to the hijackers.

James- Their names were on the manifests, they just weren't on the list of "victims" you guys like to quote. Out of all the bodies found at the Pentagon, 5 were identified which didn't match up to any of the known victims. Two of them were identified genetically as brothers.

Can you list the evidence for both of these statement or link?
If they weren't identified, then scientifically we don't know who the DNA belonged to, correct?

James or Pat No comment on discrediting the article you link to in regards to Keller and Atta's relationship? Like maybe admitting there was a relationship? And what she said about Atta and his cohorts was true? Or perhaps Keller was pressured into saying that in order to end Atta's tenure and activities in South Florida?

The nights leading up to his scheduled attack, his handlers took him out for drinks, girls, and other debauchery, just like the 9/11 hijackers did in the U.S.

This wasn't the 'night' before celebration like the 9/11 guys, this was a repeating pattern of behavior by Atta and his cohorts.

I bet if you tracked the last days of other Muslim suicide attackers, you'd find the same pattern. Well you could bet that but I'm betting you wouldn't. They ain't Catholics you know.

Alex! Yet another meaningless response from you. I challenge you to view the local TV footage right after the destruction of the fed building in OKC. There were multiple bombs planted in that building. Nevermind, go back to sleep. Oh and one other challenge, provide some kind of useful response.

 
At 31 October, 2006 05:40, Blogger Swing Dangler said...

James, where is that passenger list you were going to provide to me?

 

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