Saturday, December 09, 2006

Why the 9-11 Denial Movement Has Failed

Here's a discouraged Denier.

There's a simple flaw that he proceeds from right in the beginning:

We began this movement to convince the American public and the world that the official story of 9/11 was a lie, and that ruling factions within our own government were the real perpetrators. This we accomplished. Opinion polls conducted over the last two years show that the majority of Americans believe the US government was complicit.


Now, if you start from the assumption that the majority of Americans believe in 9-11 nuttery, then you will absolutely be discouraged by the results. Nobody's revolting? The media are ignoring you? The Democrats are specifically denying talk of impeachment? However, if you realize that 9-11 Denial is still a kooky fringe movement (not likely for a Denier of course), you'd be encouraged by the (quite evident) signs of growth.

But I gotta snicker at much of the rest of the post. For example, he talks about the disinfo agents:

One lesson the shadow government has learned over the last 40 years is that the best way to defeat your opposition is to become your opposition, and like many of those phony socialist and anti-war groups on college campuses that suck rebellious student energy and dissipate it ineffectively, preventing the formation of a legitimate, effective opposition, so have they taken over a large part of the 9/11 Truth Movement itself, channeling new skeptics (and old) into endless debates around physical evidence and other ineffective actions. During my entire time within the movement, I never once named publicly any individuals or websites I thought were intentionally promoting disinformation, or leading us down useless avenues, nor will I now. (This is to protect myself from reprisals, to avoid the further disruption caused by the endless cycle of "snitch jacketing," and because you can never really prove who is an agent and who is simply duped by the disinfo itself, much of which is easily believable on the surface.) But to prove that agents are among us, and that they have succeeded in taking over the bulk of the movement, one needs to go no further than compare the number of people who believe no plane hit the Pentagon with the number of people who know about the simultaneous wargames that were taking place on the morning of 9/11, and that prevented NORAD from intercepting the planes before they hit their targets.


You see, the no-planers at the Pentagon are proof that the movement has been infiltrated. Yep, it's time to 'fess up: James and I aren't agents of the New World Order, Dylan Avery is.

And when it come time for this Denier to tell us what his private theory is... well, let's just say that he's the first one I've heard propose this:

In my two years of 9/11 truth activism, I never emphasized the physical evidence. I always knew it was a dead end that would suck the movement's energy and accomplish nothing. But let me be straight up for a moment, if a bit speculative, because thinking about these things is helpful. They demolished the World Trade Center towers with explosives. I have no doubt about this, just as I have no doubt that the planes were flown by remote control. I also believe that hijackers did, in fact, board the planes (despite the articles claiming some of those named are still alive). I think the hijackers were trained US operatives (patsies), and that they likely did not know they were going to die. I also think the most probable explanation for the shoot-down of flight 93 is that the passengers did, in fact, storm the cockpit, only to discover that the plane was being flown by remote control. And so in order to prevent any of them from calling their loved ones and blabbing (yes, phones can work on planes), they had to shoot it down. Or perhaps the hijackers themselves learned their real fate and allowed the passengers into the cockpit to try to regain control of the aircraft. We'll never really know, and this is the idea. "Anything can be believed," and so it is equally plausible, as others have speculated, that the shoot-down of Flight 93 was planned from the beginning.


Really?

This hints at the real problem: The lack of a coherent story. Indeed, the success of Loose Change is, in my opinion, largely due to its ability to tie together the disparate elements of the CT into a reasonably tight narrative. Yeah, it's filled with errors, myths and downright lies, but at least it takes a stand. A few months ago there was a debate on RU Sirius about 9-11 Denial. The Denier declined to spell out his theory on the basis that specifying a story had the tendency to split the movement into factions. Well, DUH!

And even when the Deniers do start to seal off certain theories (e.g., no planes at the WTC) as too nutty, the line that they've drawn is hard to justify. No planes is nutty, but a Star Wars Beam Weapon from space is not?

He does bring in one argument that I've not heard before, that tends to "explain" why there's so much "evidence" for the Deniers' case:

But the World Trade Center demolition is obvious, which leads to an important question: why did they do it? Wouldn't simply crashing the planes into the buildings have been enough? Why bring them down completely? The typical responses here apply: They needed their "New Pearl Harbor," a mass casualty event to shock the public into supporting a retaliatory war. They also needed a spectacle that wouldn't be easily forgotten. These explanations are true enough. Another often cited and plausible one is that they needed to make the lie obvious enough that the people who mattered (government, corporate, and military leaders, for example) would know that they--the secret government within the government--did this and got away with it. This sends a powerful message of invincibility to anyone who might be thinking of opposing them. And the fact that they demolished building 7 later that evening in a classic-style demolition sure seems to support that argument. It's as if they were saying, "just in case you didn't get it the first time, we'll show you one even more obvious."

20 Comments:

At 09 December, 2006 07:37, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I appreciate this post.

This is fair game, and you make fair points.

 
At 09 December, 2006 07:49, Blogger Avery Dylan said...

Like hey man, Failed how could that be, if you chase shadows you never catch them. You just keep chasing.

I mean, is there any coincidence that the Cardif Giant was found not too far from Oneonta?

Yeah explain THAT!


Loose Change, man, we're changing it right NOW!

 
At 09 December, 2006 08:11, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Avery Dylan,

Is this a reference to what you are talking about?

Circuses, New York Clipper, September 2, 1871, p. 175. Not complete. Information should be checked with additional sources.

James Robinson and Co.'s Circus gave exhibitions in Washington on August 21st, 22d, 23d and 24th, to very large audiences, . . . The first afternoon performance was not witnessed by a crowded audience (in consequence of the state of the weather), but at night the canvas was densely packed. It was found necessary to put down extra seats, and even then many were obliged to stand. The General of the Army and family was present, special seats having been reserved and festooned very handsomely with the national colors. The principal feature of the entertainments was the bare-back riding of Mr. Robinson and Clarence. Both father and son have improved (if that were possible) since I last saw them at the Hippotheatron, in New York. Mr. Robinson rides more gracefully and fearlessly than ever, and, to show his ability as a horseman, he now does an act on a swift footed grey, and then, without leaving the circle, repeats the same astonishing feats on a different horse. Little Clarence is no longer an infant, but a nice plump-looking little boy. He now does a bareback act on a pony in a manner to plainly show that he is certainly a chip of the old block. Frank Pastor's pad riding comes next. Shappee and Whitney are excellent gymnasts, and the Davenport brothers are remarkably clever in tumbling and acrobatic feats, and Burke, the clown, is very comical. The company travel by rail, and so do not pretend to give a gorgeous street procession, but have an outside feature in the shape of a balloon ascension, which is conducted on the hot air plan. The Cardiff giant, i.e., one of them, and a magician (not Prof. Anderson, although the bills say so) constitute the sideshow attractions. So wrote our correspondent on August 25th.

 
At 09 December, 2006 08:34, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Check out audio file, commenter Troy (calling into GCN at Jeb from KY with Fetzer / Barrett about 13 mins into the recording) here

 
At 09 December, 2006 09:00, Blogger James B. said...

Opinion polls conducted over the last two years show that the majority of Americans believe the US government was complicit.


Yeah, but they wouldn't get a majority if it weren't for all those government agents voting twice.

 
At 09 December, 2006 09:17, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Troy,

The audio I posted was one that I recorded off the internet audio feed as it was happening.

I don't have memberships to any of the sites. I admittedly spend too much time listening to this stuff and posting about it already.

I don't mind your request, and I'd help out if I could. But, I don't have access to anything beyond what everyone else has.

If you have smaller mp3 files or wav files that you'd like to host somewhere, there are many options. For a newbie, I'd recommend free hosting at gogglepages.com

 
At 09 December, 2006 10:35, Blogger Pat said...

AD, I saw the Cardiff Giant; it was at the Farmer's Museum in Cooperstown. It was the only thing I wanted to see at that museum, because I was anxious to get to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

 
At 09 December, 2006 11:36, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lying,

Troy is entertaining, and comes across as a decent, if unsophisticated, guy.

The mission that he's on to call in and harass shows including AJ makes him an oddity, and someone who seems honestly misguided in his understanding and approach.

 
At 09 December, 2006 11:39, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lying,

Troy is entertaining, and comes across as a decent, if unsophisticated, guy.

The mission that he's on to call in and harass shows including AJ makes him an oddity, and someone who seems honestly misguided in his understanding and approach.

 
At 09 December, 2006 11:43, Blogger shawn said...

I have no doubt about this, just as I have no doubt that the planes were flown by remote control.

Blind faith is so cute. I don't need evidence, I just don't need to have any doubts!

 
At 09 December, 2006 13:58, Blogger Unknown said...

Hey Shawn
What do you suppose they did with all the passengers on all the flights, all their remains were identified. I guess they all gave DNA samples before they were put into the witness program

 
At 09 December, 2006 14:42, Blogger Cl1mh4224rd said...

@Stevew: Why was that directed at shawn?

 
At 09 December, 2006 15:18, Blogger pomeroo said...

We rationalists would be wrong to dismiss the nutter who wrote the silly drivel about a "shadow government."

He is, of course, yet another deranged asshole, but--and this is a very large "but"--he manages to isolate the crux of the whole bogus controversy. Note carefully: If jihadists did, in fact, hijack commercial airliners and fly them into buildings, THE ENTIRE FANTASIST HOUSE OF CARDS COLLAPSES.

Do you see? No more endless games of whack-a-mole in which the liars fabricate falsehoods every day, only to invent new ones the day after the old ones have been shot down. All of the idiocy about asbestos and Larry Silverstein--all of the ridiculous niggling trivia that the liars continually produce--all of it goes out the window if terrorists really flew planes into buildings.

The loon claims to buy the demolition canard, but it doesn't matter. Explosives enter the picture ONLY if jihadists did not actually hijack planes. The existence of the Impossibly Vast Conspiracy is INCOMPATIBLE with the existence of REAL jihadists.

I recall a phone conversation with Liz Verdier, a public relations rep for Boeing. She explained to me in great detail why Boeing airliners cannot be flown by remote control. When I told her that the whole fantasy edifice falls apart when it is established that real terrorists actually seized control of the planes, she commented that she knew what the loons were saying was rubbish, but it hadn't occurred to her that the whole fantasy crumbled to dust precisely at this juncture.

Why waste time refuting the liars on every falsehood they invent? If jihadists flew those planes into the WTC, all the liars have been exposed as completely as the fact-free frauds on this blog.

 
At 09 December, 2006 16:32, Blogger ConsDemo said...

Opinion polls conducted over the last two years show that the majority of Americans believe the US government was complicit.

Can anyone cite the poll this is based on and the actual question asked? If this "majority" includes those think the govt knew it was coming and didn't do enough to stop it, they are counting those who are alleging incompetence, not complicity.

Today it is rare that I talk to a person who doesn't believe the US government was involved in the attacks in some way.

This explains a lot of their delusional thinking. If his reference is the people who hang out with him, masturbating and doing drugs, he isn't getting any sort of a scientific sample. Then again, this clown admits science and evidence don't matter, so I guess it isn't surprising.

The twoofers started a new religion based on dishonesty, stupidity and hate and now they are bummed out because not enough people are joining. It almost makes on want to cry...NOT!!!!

 
At 09 December, 2006 17:54, Blogger pomeroo said...

"The twoofers started a new religion based on dishonesty, stupidity and hate..."

Beautifully put, a dead-on assessment-- bullseye!

Congratulations, consdemo. I intend to quote you in the big debate with the Loose Change boys (assuming, of course, that they show up).

 
At 09 December, 2006 19:02, Blogger ConsDemo said...

Glad to oblige. When does the greate debate take place?

 
At 09 December, 2006 21:50, Blogger pomeroo said...

We tape on Thursday. Naturally, I will post scheduling information when it is available.

 
At 10 December, 2006 07:59, Blogger Avery Dylan said...

Like hey man, the Cardiff Giant was something BIIIIG.

ANd like it was a hoax and everything, but like it was big, and like everybody believed it.

A lot like Loose Change!

The Cardiff Giant came out of a hole. Loose Change, man it came out of a hole too!
Like I'm not saying its a hoax or anything, just ask questions and stuff.

 
At 14 December, 2006 11:31, Blogger The Masked Writer said...

Off Topic here but---

Disgrunteled employee or Truther?Interview with former Boston Center Air Traffic Controller and pilotsfor911truth.org member Robin Hordon. Visit http://pilotsfor911truth.org for latest analysis into the events of Sept. 11, 2001.

A former Boston Center air traffic controller has gone public on his assertion that 9/11 was an inside job and that Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon tracked three of the four flights from the point of their hijacking to hitting their targets. In an astounding telephone interview, Robin Hordon claims air traffic controllers have been ignored or silenced to protect the true perpetrators of 9/11.

A recording of the phone conversation was posted on Google video late yesterday by the Pilots For 9/11 Truth organization.

After having acquired a background in aviation, Hordon underwent rigorous FAA training to become an air traffic controller and was posted to Boston Center where he worked for eleven years. He did not work at Boston Center when 9/11 occurred but still knows people that did who concur with his conclusions. In comparing the stand down of air defense on 9/11 and what should have occurred according to standard operating procedure, he quickly concluded on the very afternoon of the attacks that they could represent nothing other than an inside job.

"On September 11th I'm one of the few people who really within quite a few hours of the whole event taking place just simply knew that it was an inside job, and it wasn't because of the visuals, the collapses, whatever....I knew that it was an inside job I think within about four or five o'clock that afternoon and the reason that I knew is because when those aircraft did collide and then we got the news and information on where the aircraft were and where they went....if they knew where the aircraft were and were talking to them at a certain time then normal protocol is to get fighter jet aircraft up assist," said Hordon.

Hordon said that from personal experience he knew the system was always ready to immediately scramble intercepting fighters and that any reversal of that procedure would have been unprecedented and abnormal. He had also personally handled both real hijacking situations in his airspace and other emergency procedures.

"I know people who work there who confirmed to me that the FAA was not asleep and the controllers could do the job, they followed their own protocols," he stated.

Hordon said that the only way the airliners could have avoided being intercepted was if a massive electrical and communications failure had occurred which it didn't on that day, adding that there was "no way" the hijacked airliners could have reached their targets otherwise.

He highlighted the fact that only an emergency handling of aircraft protocol change on that day could have interrupted standard operating procedure and hijacking protocol. Hordon said it was unbelievable how far American Airlines Flight 11 was allowed to go off course without the appropriate action being taken on behalf of flight controllers.

G

"What you do is you don't wait for the judge, jury and executioner to prove it's an emergency, if things start to go wrong you have the authority to simply say I am going to treat this craft as if it is an emergency, because if everybody's wrong then fifteen minutes later no big thing."

Hordon emphasized that the debate has deliberately been channeled by NORAD and the government to focus on reactions to hijackings, when the real issue is the emergency condition of the aircraft well before a hijacking is even confirmed.

He went on to explain how as soon as the hijacking of Flight 11 was confirmed at around 8:24am, the entire system, from every FAA center coast to coast, to the Pentagon, to the President were informed and knew of the hijacking.

"The system now had to make some phone calls and call up Rummy's Pentagon and Rummy's Pentagon is the one that would then make the decision."

"Well, Rummy's Pentagon on American 11 didn't answer the phone, neither 175, didn't answer the phone and they didn't answer the phone until they were absolutely embarrassed into answering the phone somewhere along the flight of United 93 and American 77 - first formal contact was at this particular time," said Hordon.

"That is all distractionary, that is all designed to keep people off the focus - the real focus is what the air traffic controller did immediately upon seeing that American 11 was in trouble and what we do as air traffic controllers is we get eyes and ears on this flight."

Hordon underscored the fact that after the confirmed hijacking of Flight 11, the entire FAA system would have been on full alert and obsessively watching the skies for any unusual activity, and that such activity as the hijacking of Flight 77 would have been immediately reported to supervisors instantaneously, as well as being continually tracked.

"If the air traffic controller were going by emergency procedures which he is trained to do, he would have reached out directly to ADC (NORAD) and say what do you see?" said Hordon.

(SD-which to highlight that point above, happens routinely when pilots encouter UFO's. Source-documentary on Discovery Channel or Sci-Fi. Easy to find. They actually played the recordings on the docu.)

This highlights the absurdity of Dulles controllers mistaking Flight 77 for a fighter jet as it approached Washington as was reported, and the plane's over 40 minute uninterrupted journey to the Pentagon after a hijack was confirmed.

Hordon debunked the recent Vanity Fair piece that whitewashed NORAD's response as a consequence of confusion and the supposition that NORAD needs exact flight coordinates to enact any kind of response, and that the planes were supposedly invisible to radar and couldn't be tracked properly.

"It's very clear now through testimony and documents given to us by the federal government that indeed....the Boston Center actually tracked American 11 as a primary target after it lost its radar, after it lost its transponder, all the way to World Trade Center," he said.

"Further information indicates later the NORAD radars had it tracked....the bottom line of the story is that all of those aircraft were always tracked all the time by the FAA air traffic control centers," said Hordon, pointing out that information showing air traffic controllers tried insistently to alert military command structures is being locked down because it points to finger of responsibility to Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon, who were also tracking all the aircraft from the point of hijacking to the impact on their targets.

This is the reason why, as Hordon stated, that we don't have complete access to flight data recorders and FAA tapes, which in the case of a conversation between six New York Air Route Traffic Control Center controllers was ordered to be shredded , because if studies of that evidence were undertaken it would become very clear as to who was really behind the attack.

"What they did is they cherry picked transmissions, communications and statements made all on these four flights that were able to paint and write a story that the public would look at and so ooh wow, this really happened - but it wasn't factual, it was a story and it tell not tell anything other than what the high perps wanted the public to hear - they cherry picked this information," said Hordon.

Hordon ended by saying that only with the testimony from the dozens of flight controllers who have been silenced or ignored would the true story about who carried out 9/11 begin to emerge.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9147890225218338952&hl=en

14 December, 2006 11:28

 
At 18 March, 2007 12:07, Blogger jph wacheski said...

you guys are living in your own little pro-fascist 'lets be an empire with the biggest most murderous corporate millitary' feedback loop.

ALL anyone needs to do is watch the videos of WTC7 and CONTROLED DEMOLITION is quite obviouse,. and the ACTIONS of the PNAC pirates is just proof ontop of proof,. but I know, you just plain don't care! You want more money for your death-machine,. just recall that you do reap just what you sow,. and it is coming back for your disturbed little selves.

 

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