Tuesday, August 29, 2006

Couple Good Smackdowns of the Conspiracy Theorists

First up is Rick Harrison, who wonders how we can plan for the future when we don't understand the past. He comes up with the best explanation I've heard as to why the film was named Loose Change:

You need merely type "9/11 conspiracy" into an Internet search engine to become swept into this seductive web of nonsense. The creators of films like "Loose Change" (perfectly titled because it doesn't add up to much) and Web sites like www.911Truth.org pick through the details of one of this nation's darkest days with the paranoid verve of mad patriots, convinced they are uncovering the truth behind their worst fears.


He also recognizes the hopelessness of arguing with the true believers:

I'm not about to get into a shouting match with 9/11 conspiracy theorists on the supposed merits of their arguments. Based on how they respond to criticism and reason, talking sense to people like these serves as much purpose as licking a bald man's head to solve algebraic equations.


Dennis Byrne writes in the Chicago Tribune:

Such theories require extensive fabrications to back them up, such as the assertion that the towers collapsed at free-fall speed (false), and that one floor falling on top of another couldn't possibly "pancake" the buildings (actually it was scores of floors collapsing on each floor).

The conspiracy nimrods, of course, won't be there alone. Mainstream media nimrods also will attend in great numbers. TV anchors will solemnly speak of "disturbing new questions" about Sept. 11 and break to interviews with charla-tans, incompetents, nut cases and the gullible, all united as fools.


Dennis Byrne also has a blog, where the nutbars are filling up his comments section.

Hat Tip: WildCat at the JREF Forums.

41 Comments:

At 29 August, 2006 10:29, Blogger nesNYC said...

Such theories require extensive fabrications to back them up

Yep! Like all the "Atta" fabrications fed to us by the US government.

 
At 29 August, 2006 10:30, Blogger nesNYC said...

Couple Good Smackdowns of the Conspiracy Theorists

Translation: The spin control machine is in overdrive!

 
At 29 August, 2006 10:33, Blogger CHF said...

Nessie.

Please explain how thermite can be made to burn on hundreds of beams sideways at the same time.

C'mon dude, if you've got the truth on your side then this should be easy.

 
At 29 August, 2006 10:44, Blogger Pepik said...

A chill wind blew tumbleweeds across the plain. Somewhere in the distance, a dog barked.

 
At 29 August, 2006 10:49, Blogger Dean Malenko Eats Dogs said...

"Please explain how thermite can be made to burn on hundreds of beams sideways at the same time."

Who are you to deny the power of da JOOOZ?

 
At 29 August, 2006 10:52, Blogger nesNYC said...

C'mon dude, if you've got the truth on your side then this should be easy.

Please explain why Atta would leave his car at Logan airport with incriminating evidence only to fly there later? Come on, truth is on YOUR side, should be easy.

 
At 29 August, 2006 11:05, Blogger nesNYC said...

Please explain how thermite can be made to burn on hundreds of beams sideways at the same time.

US Patent 6,766,744
directional thermite cutter charge

 
At 29 August, 2006 11:15, Blogger default.xbe said...

US Patent 6,766,744
directional thermite cutter charge


Manipulation of vented plug 103 and orifice 112 designs make it possible to control the pressure of the jets of molten products of reaction through the orifices 112 at the bottom.

it only shoots down

have been shown to be capable of producing an approximately 2" diameter hole through 1/4 inch thick steel plate

it produces circular holes, not lateral cuts

Filed: January 14, 2003

ill let that stand for itself

 
At 29 August, 2006 11:17, Blogger nesNYC said...

it produces circular holes, not lateral cuts

Filed: January 14, 2003

ill let that stand for itself


Hey, this is what's out in the public domain; don't you think military grade stuff is much more advanced? Come on... The origins of this device date back to ’79. Get a grip.

 
At 29 August, 2006 11:41, Blogger nesNYC said...

Who are you to deny the power of da JOOOZ?

I know, right?!?!?! With all those Kosher Al Qaeda running around, how could anyone doubt their power?

 
At 29 August, 2006 11:58, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

Nessie:

You remind me of one of those toy dolls with the pull string in the back. Each time you come here, we know you'll say something, but when we pull the string we have no idea what your gonna say.

This time it is "Atta"

Next time who knows, CD, OBL, I guess we'll have to "pull" the string and find out.

 
At 29 August, 2006 12:49, Blogger Chad said...

Hey, this is what's out in the public domain; don't you think military grade stuff is much more advanced?

Nessie. The patent you linked to is FOR the military...

Assignee: The United States of America as represented by the Secretary of the Army (Washington, DC)

 
At 29 August, 2006 13:12, Blogger shawn said...

Please explain why Atta would leave his car at Logan airport with incriminating evidence only to fly there later?

Hmm I dunno, I don't think he'd really care about evidence since he was planning on being incinerated when he piloted in a plane into a building.

Conspiracy theory logic: evidence isn't evidence!

 
At 29 August, 2006 13:52, Blogger Richard said...

Conspiracy theory logic: evidence isn't evidence!

...Unless it supports your wacko beliefs.

 
At 29 August, 2006 14:07, Blogger MarkyX said...

You have any proof that thermite is used for demolishing steel frame high rise buildings?

Because all the info I gathered from Thermite use in the military, it's mostly for destroying precious cargo using thermite grenades. Nothing to do with dismantling buildings.

Thermite doesn't have a shatter-like explosions (it's not an explosion) like Dynamite to destroy buildings. It is the most ineffective way to destroy a building.

And the worst part is they expect us to believe it fell at free-fall speeds.

 
At 29 August, 2006 14:31, Blogger Alex said...

Even "cutter charges" in the military are made of C4. Thermite's just not a very common substance, whereas we've got tons of C4 kicking around. If I want to cut the barrel on a tank turret (we've done it to disable tanks which were abandoned or turned in to us), I'll use two C-rings of C4, and NOT thermite. I've never seen anyone in the military use thermite.

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:01, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

guys...I wouldn't worry...the way things seem to be going in the CTer arena, i think Thermite's days are numbered...As are S Jones days amongst them.

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:02, Blogger Manny said...

I never understood the Loosers' attraction to thermite -- I guess it's just because the guy who brought it up isn't a jobless slacker. Anyone ever seen thermite at work? The WTC would have looked like a billion bottle rockets igniting at once if that was used to make the cuts. It also argues against the molten whatever it was found later, as it expends so quickly that heat would not propagate very far within the targeted beams -- indeed, that's one of the reasons it is attractive for the uses it has.

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:03, Blogger CHF said...

Way to go Nazinyc.

You link to something that doesn't do what you claim the WTC thermite did.

Lest there be any doubt that you have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about....

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:34, Blogger nesNYC said...

he'd really care about evidence since he was planning on being incinerated

Uh.. Says who?

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:35, Blogger default.xbe said...

Lest there be any doubt that you have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about....

he just doesnt read his own links, like the one about bin laden being dead that said theres no evidence bin laden is dead

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:38, Blogger nesNYC said...

You link to something that doesn't do what you claim the WTC thermite did.

Lest there be any doubt that you have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about....


Directional thermite charges are a reality, that's all I was trying to show and that's exactly what I did. It's not my fault even when presented with conclusive proof, you still want to believe in the baloney that is the19 hijackers. I can lead you to the water...

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:39, Blogger nesNYC said...

he just doesnt read his own links, like the one about bin laden being dead that said theres no evidence bin laden is dead

And there's really no evidence he's alive as of 8/29/2006 so what's your point?

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:41, Blogger nesNYC said...

I never understood the Loosers' attraction to thermite

Because there is no way in hell jet fuel burned hot enough to melt steel and keep it that way for weeks. NIST didn't even try to answer that "oddity" and thermite charges in the basements is the ONLY answer to that question.

 
At 29 August, 2006 15:51, Blogger default.xbe said...

Directional thermite charges are a reality, that's all I was trying to show and that's exactly what I did.

yeah, as long as the direction is DOWN

And there's really no evidence he's alive as of 8/29/2006 so what's your point?

he was alive, theres no evidence he is no longer alive, logic states he is probably still alive

Because there is no way in hell jet fuel burned hot enough to melt steel and keep it that way for weeks.

and theres no way in hell thermite burned for weeks, try again

 
At 29 August, 2006 16:01, Blogger Manny said...

Because there is no way in hell jet fuel burned hot enough to melt steel and keep it that way for weeks. NIST didn't even try to answer that "oddity" and thermite charges in the basements is the ONLY answer to that question.

NIST was concerned with what brought the towers down, not what happened to the wreckage.

And you are completely, 100% wrong (well, OK, I personally think you're lying, not wrong, but we'll leave that aside for now). Thermite would not be helpful at all in sustaining fires for a lengthy period of time. It expends its energy very very quickly. That's the whole point of thermite. Whatever caused the fires in the first place -- jet fuel, thermite, natural gas lines, the Angry Finger of God, whatever -- it would have to then ignite something which burns more slowly to sustain the heat over time. You get that? Thermite doesn't smolder. It can't smolder. It flashes, and then it's gone. Additionally, thermite produces lots of sparks but relatively little flame; it is a poor candidate for igniting a long-term fire fueled by other sources.

 
At 29 August, 2006 16:04, Blogger shawn said...

Because there is no way in hell jet fuel burned hot enough to melt steel and keep it that way for weeks.

Yeah jet fuel doesn't...but let's ignore all the things it set on fire, shall we?

Uh.. Says who?

What do you mean "says who"? Atta piloted a plane into the WTC. You're acting like him keeping behind evidence would be weird. You don't tend to have a fear about being caught when you're dead.

 
At 29 August, 2006 17:27, Blogger Sword of Truth said...

If you're a crazed nutbar about to blow himself up for the cause, you're going to want people to know it was you.

Atta leaving behind piles of evidence is consistent with the non-insane version.

 
At 29 August, 2006 17:42, Blogger CHF said...

Nessie you are so stupid it defies belief.

I asked how thermite could be made to burn sideways on multiple beams at the same time.

You didn't show a) how it burns sideways, or b) how it could be applied on multiple beams at the same time.

Yet, somehow, you act as if all your bases are covered.

You are 100% retarded.

 
At 29 August, 2006 20:39, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

LOL Does nesNYC get his daily news from the Weekly World News?
I love how he proudly displays links to stories that are created by bullshit no name websites.

 
At 29 August, 2006 21:01, Blogger nesNYC said...

You're acting like him keeping behind evidence would be weird. You don't tend to have a fear about being caught when you're dead.

Yeah right! Looks like "someone" wanted all that stuff found just like that passport that got ejected from the trade towers. Set-up.

 
At 29 August, 2006 21:08, Blogger CHF said...

I love how he proudly displays links to stories that are created by bullshit no name websites.

Worse than that Living Dylan.

The stupid shit regularly links to neo-Nazi websites.

 
At 30 August, 2006 03:14, Blogger shawn said...

Looks like "someone" wanted all that stuff found just like that passport that got ejected from the trade towers.

Damn, you're dumb.

 
At 30 August, 2006 09:53, Blogger Pepik said...

nazinc:

OK so you immediately jump on the topic since you have no life, getting the first two posts in. The first is an attempt to change the subject, the second is a pointlessly general dimissal of debunking. Then you dodge a question and try to derail the topic again.

Finally, you get around to answering a questions. You provide evidence that sideways thermate charges exist by providing a link that describes a charge which doesnt't go sideways. Then you say the military stuff would be better, but your link was already to military thermate. After a few more irrelevant posts you pretend we all have amnesia and tell us your downward thermate link proved that sideways thermate exists.

Finally, you tell us that only thermate could make metal stay melted for weeks, but of course we've been over that before and you can't explain how exactly thermate would do that.

Its obvious that the only reason you come here is to get some attention. Nobody believes you, nobody finds you convincing, and you don't make even the slightest effort to put forward a solid, defendable argument. Most of the claims you make are absolute garbage which you abandon mere moments after you have said them. What's the point? Do you really have such a hard time finding ways to spend your time? Life is short you know.

 
At 30 August, 2006 11:48, Blogger JoanBasil said...

You should take heed of at least one of the comments on that Byrne blog:

"At 12:57 PM, Danny G said...
For those of us who believe that the government was in no way responsible for 9/11, this article is a pathetic and shameful example of how not to address an issue and instead use countless attacks, insults, and false arguments to attempt to discredit (and not disprove) your opponent.
I have read information on both sides of the debate, and often when I read opinions against the "9-11 truth squads" the more I see that side as willing to distort the facts and mislead their readers. People who praise this type of argument should be ashamed. These people should instead be crying for someone to actually write a coherent argument which isn't filled with so much garbage namecalling, straw man arguments, and general dismissal of the opponent."

 
At 30 August, 2006 12:16, Blogger Malcolm said...

Well, you beat me to it. After watching loose change, I was determined to post a rebuttal, but you've covered much of what I was going to say.

I haven't seen all of your screw loose change segments yet, but you should cover the damage done to the buildings. From photos and videos I have seen, it's clear that it wasn't the "fire" that caused the damage, it was the large sections of the building being torn out.

In a few pictures, you can see 1/3 of one side, and 2/3 of the ajoining sides taken out. The only thing holding it up seemed to be a corner piece. And, in watching the video of the collapse, you can see this corner piece give out just before the collapse happens.

I shouldn't complain too much though; I'm afraid that when the next conspiracy video comes out, I might find out that >I< actually brought down the towers :)

 
At 30 August, 2006 13:03, Blogger Manny said...

NIST was concerned with what brought the towers down, not what happened to the wreckage.

(snip) Thermite would not be helpful at all in sustaining fires for a lengthy period of time...



Oooh, I am so smart. You'd almost think I was a NWO shill, being all timely like that.

 
At 30 August, 2006 14:42, Blogger shawn said...

These people should instead be crying for someone to actually write a coherent argument which isn't filled with so much garbage namecalling, straw man arguments, and general dismissal of the opponent.

Never seen a straw man argument against the Truthers thus far.

Dismissal is fine. If you believe the government committed 9/11 you are either an idiot, ignorant, or desparate to cling to something to show how evil Bush, the government, and/or America is.

 
At 30 August, 2006 16:30, Blogger STH said...

Pattern of deceit

Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission, by Thomas Kean and Lee H. Hamilton, is a book about the September 11, 2001 attacks and the 9/11 Commission that investigated them.

The book was released on August 15, 2006 and chronicles the work of Kean (Commission Chairman) and Hamilton (Commission Vice-Chairman) of the 9/11 Commission, which some consider one of the most important independent government commissions in American political history.

In the book, Kean and Hamilton write that the 9/11 Commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by officials from The Pentagon and the Federal Aviation Administration during the investigation that it considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by Pentagon and FAA officials

Faa officials unable to get authorization to launch intercept.
10:10:31NASYPANY (to floor): Negative. Negative clearance to shoot.… Goddammit!…FOX: I'm not really worried about code words at this point.NASYPANY: Fuck the code words. That's perishable information. Negative clearance to fire. ID. Type. Tail.

Here is why they could not intercept.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction
CJCSI 3610.01A (dated 1 June 2001) was issued to provide
"guidance to the Deputy Director for Operations (DDO),
National Military Command Center (NMCC), and
operational commanders in the event of an aircraft piracy
(hijacking) or request for destruction of derelict airborne objects."
This new instruction superseded CJCSI 3610.01 of 31 July 1997.

This CJCSI states, "In the event of a hijacking, the
NMCC will be notified by the most expeditious means by the FAA.
The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate responses as
authorized by referenced, forward requests for DOD assistance to
the Secretary of Defense for approval."

Reference D refers to Department of Defense Directive
3025.15 (Feb. 18, 1997)

 
At 31 August, 2006 13:12, Blogger shawn said...

Here is why they could not intercept.

Wrong.

 
At 01 September, 2006 01:07, Blogger Pepik said...

It is interesting that so many CTers suggest molten metal weeks later suggests the use of thermite/thermate. Of course they won't explain how this is true. There are a lot of reasons this is wrong, but I was just thinking of one more - since thermite/thermate can be used to weld things together, wouldn't the fact that it keeps things molten for weeks be a bit unhelpful?

 

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