Wednesday, December 20, 2006

Regarding Willie Rodriguez

I wrote a post earlier this week that I thought was pretty reasonable here, but I spiced it up a bit for the JREF forum, specifically using the word "traitor". For that I apologize to him. And I made a mistake in analyzing it without recognizing that at least some of my assumptions were coming from my personal ideological standpoint. For that I apologize to you.

I still think that spreading 9-11 Denial abroad is incredibly damaging to the country's image, especially in Iran, and hope that Willie will find that he has other engagements that week.

24 Comments:

At 20 December, 2006 18:42, Blogger troy said...

Occassionally we all succumb to Jedi Mind tricks.

Don't be too hard on yourself.

 
At 20 December, 2006 18:44, Blogger Lying_Dylan said...

Willie is a grown man.
Let him dig his own grave.

 
At 20 December, 2006 18:52, Blogger Manny said...

If he goes, we will become a traitor. Benedict Arnold wasn't innocent of conspiring to turn over West Point simply because he was a legitimate hero in earlier battles.

 
At 20 December, 2006 21:05, Blogger Alex said...

Why apologize? He is absolutely a traitor. No matter what your ideological bent, it's pretty much a given that Iran is financing/supporting the killing of American soldiers in Iraq. That makes them your enemy, regardless of whether you're engaged in combat with them or not. Him going to Iran now to criticize the US is equivalent to someone going to, say, China, Russia, or Cambodia, while the US was in Vietnam, and talking about the gulf of tonkin conspiracy. Like I said, he's absolutely a traitor. He should count himself lucky that he's not in jail, and he definitely has no right to an apology from you or anyone else.

 
At 20 December, 2006 23:15, Blogger Murdervillage said...

alex said...

Like I said, he's absolutely a traitor. He should count himself lucky that he's not in jail


Can you explain how, according to U.S. law, he is a traitor?

 
At 21 December, 2006 02:23, Blogger Sword of Truth said...

Alex nailed it.

Last I checked, under US law, treason is a death penalty offense.

If he does this, he should be arrested as soon as he steps off the plane back home. And if the jury decides he should die for his crimes, so be it.

 
At 21 December, 2006 03:16, Blogger Pepik said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 21 December, 2006 06:14, Blogger Manny said...

Last I checked, under US law, treason is a death penalty offense.

It is, but it is also a very specifically defined offense (the statute). That's why I used the word traitor rather than treasonous. Whilst Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism as defined by law, it is not an "enemy" as so defined.

One might reasonably argue that Iran ought to be so defined because of their sponsorship of terrorists attacking US troops in Iraq. I would agree with that. But it is currently not defined that way.

 
At 21 December, 2006 10:00, Blogger Alex said...

The treason statue is unfortunately way too broad. It depends on how do you define "aid and comfort".

 
At 21 December, 2006 10:06, Blogger Triterope said...

Well, this should be a good test case for that "enemy combatants" law the CTs are always going on about.

 
At 21 December, 2006 13:36, Blogger Democrat said...

So if your own country supports terrorism heavily this is ok, but if an other country supports terrorism, it is bad? This thread really shows what certain people have for beliefs. That draws a grim picture.

 
At 21 December, 2006 14:28, Blogger Sword of Truth said...

Manny - Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed for treason despite there being no active hostilities between the US and the Soviet Union at the time of thier trial and sentencing.

William Rodriguez is planning to offer his services to the Iranian propaganda department at a time when the Iranian government is providing material support to forces currently actively engaging US forces. Iranian bombs are killing US servicemen and Iran and everyone else, including Rodriguez, knows it.

During the Viet Nam conflict, "Hanoi Jane" Fonda did basically the same thing and escaped unscathed, legally speaking. She then went on to live a life of movie stardom and luxury and married an uber-rich TV executive when her star power ran out. Unlike Fonda, Rodriguez is neither pretty, young nor rich (perhaps he should convince Jessica Simpson to go in his place?), he is just a janitor. A prosecution of Rodriguez is more feasible than "Hanoi Jane".

The death penalty is unlikely for Rodriguez if he is prosecuted. But as I said, this is all his choice and if he goes ahead, it's all on him.

Here's one more thing, should Rodriguez be charged, any twoofers that get as far as voir dire will be automatically tossed from the jury pool without the prosecution having to use any of it's pre-emptory challenges. Rodriguez would be facing a jury that is 100% conspiradroid free.

Demmy - ROFL @ Al-Queada sympathizers. Suxx 2 B U. Cry more n00b.

 
At 21 December, 2006 14:28, Blogger Richard said...

How the hell do we support terrorism?

 
At 21 December, 2006 14:52, Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

As I said addressing this earlier, to Willie...

if he goes over there, as he has stated, purely to spread peace, than that is great.

However, if he goes over there are lectures on how the USG caused 9/11, and killed 3000 innocent people, than that is far from peaceful, and hence I think an extremely distasteful thing to do...traitorous...that is up for discussion/debate.

TAM

 
At 21 December, 2006 15:37, Blogger Triterope said...

If he goes over there, as he has stated, purely to spread peace, than that is great.

As much as I'd like to give Willie Rodriguez the benefit of the doubt on this point, I just don't see how this trip can be anything other than a 9-11 conspiracy seminar. There's simply no other reason for Ahmadinejad to be interested in Rodriguez. He has no diplomatic qualifications, so the "spreading peace" stuff doesn't make sense. When a nation wants to call a peace conference, the lead foreign delegate is typically someone other than a janitor.

 
At 21 December, 2006 17:14, Blogger Manny said...

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were executed for treason despite there being no active hostilities between the US and the Soviet Union at the time of thier trial and sentencing.

The Rosenbergs were (properly) exectuted for espionage, not for treason. In fact, the appeals court specifically made the distinction between the two crimes in upholding the verdict and sentence. "...in the Rosenbergs' case, an essential element of treason, giving aid to an 'enemy,' is irrelevant to the espionage offense." (cite)

Unless Mr. Rodriguez possesses state secrets which he intends to pass on to Mr. Ahmadisgustingfellow, he is safe from an espionage conviction. Likewise, he is legally safe from a treason conviction, just as Baghdad Bonoir was safe from a treason conviction for his visit to Saddam Hussein prior to his removal from power.

 
At 21 December, 2006 17:55, Blogger Sword of Truth said...

The Rosenbergs were (properly) exectuted for espionage, not for treason. In fact, the appeals court specifically made the distinction between the two crimes in upholding the verdict and sentence. "...in the Rosenbergs' case, an essential element of treason, giving aid to an 'enemy,' is irrelevant to the espionage offense."

You are right, I stand corrected.

The only other examples that are comparable to the "Fry Willy" (I just had to get that in there ;-) ) scenario are the execution of Willam "Lord Haw-Haw" Joyce after WW2 by the British for his wartime propaganda broadcasts from Berlin and the recent indictment of Adam Gadhan, aka "Azzam The American" on charges of treason for his "Invitation to Islam" video in wich he co-starred with Al-Queada XO Ayman Al-Zawahiri.

There is precedent for treason charges against those who merely propagandize for the enemy. And there is more than enough evidence to identify Iran as an enemy.

 
At 22 December, 2006 08:28, Blogger Alex said...

Unless Mr. Rodriguez possesses state secrets which he intends to pass on to Mr. Ahmadisgustingfellow, he is safe from an espionage conviction.

Funny thing is....in his mind, that's exactly what he's doing. Passing on "information" about a "secret government operation". Ofcourse, it's not really espionage because his paranoid delusions aren't classified, but it's interesting to note that he's attempting to commit espionage.

 
At 22 December, 2006 12:01, Blogger Triterope said...

This speculation is interesting. But realistically, is there any way the government could prosecute Wille Rodriguez for this trip without looking like monsters? It would look like oppression of free speech, and it would imply that the Bush administration has something to hide about 9-11.

The smart thing to do would be to let him go, and let the media report on it. After the world has seen the CNN coverage of Rodriguez and Ahmadinejad discussing 9-11 conspiracy, on the heels of a Holocaust Denial conference, the Truth movement won't be able to show its face in public.

 
At 22 December, 2006 12:14, Blogger Manny said...

The smart thing to do would be to let him go, and let the media report on it.

I think that's exactly right. The appropriate penalty for Mr. Rodriguez, should he continue on this ill-advised path, is the opprobrium of his fellow citizens.

 
At 23 December, 2006 05:51, Blogger Alex said...

This speculation is interesting. But realistically, is there any way the government could prosecute Wille Rodriguez for this trip without looking like monsters?

They get made out to be monsters or idiots no matter what they do, so really, they have nothing to lose :) Hell, at least Bush would get back some of the far-right that he lost due to his stance (or lack thereof) on the illegal immigration issues. And it'd be a morale boost for the army too.

The smart thing to do would be to let him go, and let the media report on it. After the world has seen the CNN coverage of Rodriguez and Ahmadinejad discussing 9-11 conspiracy, on the heels of a Holocaust Denial conference, the Truth movement won't be able to show its face in public.

You'd think so...but what happens when the majority of the world turns hateful and retarded? There's a reason holocaust denial is illegal in Europe - hate speech and lies are easy to spread, and it's easy to get people to believe you. It's much harder to try and combat that sort of nonsense through education, especially when your opposition can simply blow you off as "government propaganda". I'm afraid that when it comes to things like anti-semitism (and anti-americanism for that matter), we're fighting a losing battle.

 
At 23 December, 2006 08:42, Blogger ConsDemo said...

Greetings all, I´m on vacation in Venezuela so that explains my absence from posting. I had a debate with an older man, whom I respect on most topics, on conspiracy theories last night. He saw a program on the state television channel that suggests controlled demolition of the WTC, I told him it was nonsense. However, I don´t find it surprising the Venezuelan government airs these idiotic videos since Chavez wants to hurl all the anti-American propoganda he can.

As for the subject of the thread. I doubt spreading venemous lies is illegal, thus Rodriguez probably can´t be prosecuted. The term "traitor" seems valid since he is making common cause with enemies of the United States. I don´t know what his trip to Iran entails but he did travel to Venezuela last March and apparently part of his trip involved "educating" Chavez and his exceptionally juvenile Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro on the "truth" behind 9-11. So the dirtbag has had some success.

I don´t think anyone needs to feel guilty criticizing Rodriguez. Perhaps he did some heroic things that day but he is still a backstabber. Whatever good things he may have done do not absolve him from spreading cynicism and hate for this country.

 
At 23 December, 2006 11:34, Blogger Alex said...

I don´t know what his trip to Iran entails but he did travel to Venezuela last March and apparently part of his trip involved "educating" Chavez and his exceptionally juvenile Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro on the "truth" behind 9-11.

Well, I hope you're enjoying your time in Venezuela. After that statement, I hope tomorrows newspaper headline isn't "American national arrested in Venezuela".

 
At 31 December, 2006 18:53, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good way to shit on a 9/11 hero. You have th mentality of Troy from W.VA. Inbred stupidity.

 

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