Top Lies and Deceptions in Loose Change 21-30
I am not done yet...
21. Claim: 200,000 tons of steel shattered into sections no longer than a couple feet long.
Truth: Sections of the World Trade Center, often hundreds of feet long survived. Source
22. Claim: Kevin Ryan from Underwriters Laboratories, the company that certified the steel that was used in the World Trade Center, stated the steel should not have melted at the temperatures they were exposed to.
Truth: Kevin Ryan worked in the water testing department, nobody claimed the steel melted, and UL did not certify it in the first place (OK, that is technically 3 lies). Source
23. Claim: Numerous firefighters and other witnesses heard explosions in the world trade center indicating the use of demolitions.
Truth: A jet liner with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel crashed into each of the towers at 500 mph. It would be suspicious if they didn’t hear subsequent explosions. Source
24. Claim: Ben Fountain, a financial analyst who worked in the World Trade Center, told People Magazine that in the weeks before 9-11, there were a number of unannounced and unusual drills where sections of both the Twin Towers and building 7 were evacuated for 'security reasons'.
Truth: Mr. Fountain only stated that his tower was evacuated. He didn’t say it in the context that the film presents, that this somehow gave them the opportunity to plant explosives, but to say that there were previous threats against the towers. Other sources used by the conspiracy movement contradict this. Source and here
25. Claim: Bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the World Trade Center only days before the attack.
Truth: Security was actually increased for a couple of weeks; this “removal” was just security returning to normal. Source
26. Claim: Seismic records prove that explosives were used in the World Trade Center
Truth: The Columbia University seismic center specifically states that their records do not support such a conclusion. Source
27. Mayor Giuliani shipped off the remains of the World Trade Center before anyone could look at it.
Truth: FEMA, the FBI, the NTSB and the NIST all conducted in depth investigations, including removal and testing of debris. An extensive report is available at http://www.nist.gov/
28. Claim: Not even FEMA was allowed into Ground Zero.
Truth: False, they were involved in the investigation and even produced the first report. Source
29. Claim: At the United 93 crash site “there was nothing. Nothing that you can distinguish that a plane had crashed there. “
Truth: Extensive debris including engines, personal effects, body parts and the black boxes were found at the crash site. Pictures of many of these items were introduced into evidence as the Zacarias Moussaoui trial. Source
30. Claim: Wally Miller, a Somerset County coroner stated that there were no bodies found at the crash site of United 93
Truth: There were no “whole” bodies, but over 1500 body parts were found, and most of the passengers were identified through the use of DNA. Mr. Miller later reported his findings on this. Source
posted by James B. @ 8:29 AM
46 comments
46 Comments:
Truth: A jet liner with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel crashed into each of the towers at 500 mph. It would be suspicious if they didn’t hear subsequent explosions.
WRONG! Go through this whole video. There are numerous explosions before and during the collapses just like all the eyewitnesses heard; just like the firemen documented in their radio transmissions.
http://www.911eyewitness.com/truth/googlelowrez.html
Truth: The Columbia University seismic center specifically states that their records do not support such a conclusion.
Bending words there? It really doesn't matter what "official" at the Columbia U seismic center 'think.' Whatever event happened just before the collapses registered 2+ Richter earthquakes because they were coupled to the ground. No one denies this FACT.
Truth: Extensive debris including engines, personal effects, body parts and the black boxes were found at the crash site. Pictures of many of these items were introduced into evidence as the Zacarias Moussaoui trial.
Question, how big was the "crash site?" and how long until every left was "recovered?" The fact that this "evidence" was introduced in the Moussaoui trai is very suspect since he was not on flight 93 and testified he was going to hit the White House which is also a complete lie.
Buddy, you need serious help.
"There are numerous explosions before and during the collapses just like all the eyewitnesses heard;"
And explosions can be heard during most fires. Talk to a fireman if you're in doubt about it.
"It really doesn't matter what "official" at the Columbia U seismic center 'think.' Whatever event happened just before the collapses registered 2+ Richter earthquakes because they were coupled to the ground."
And, ofcourse, YOU are better qualified to interpret the meaning of those "earthquakes" than the experts who took the measurements and who work with such data on a daily basis. Wow. I'm truly in awe of you. Let me know when you get that cold-fusion thing working, ok?
"The fact that this "evidence" was introduced in the Moussaoui trai is very suspect since he was not on flight 93 and testified he was going to hit the White House which is also a complete lie."
Yep, the guy lied in order to get himself locked up for life. Makes sense. Maybe I should go confess to starting WW2. It really wasn't Hitlers fault you know, I bet him $20 he couldn't invade Poland, and things just kinda went down hill from there.
And, ofcourse, YOU are better qualified to interpret the meaning of those "earthquakes" than the experts who took the measurements and who work with such data on a daily basis. Wow. I'm truly in awe of you. Let me know when you get that cold-fusion thing working, ok?
This is why 9/11 succeeds in fooling the average American. You guys don't use your brain but rely on "experts" to interpret the obvious for you.
Facts:
1. The '93 bombing of the WTC didn't produce any measurements on the Richter scale
2. 9/11 Both Towers register 2 + "events" just before they collapse respectively. There is NO debate on this FACT. Not even the so called "experts" at Columbia U deny this happened.
Now, use your brain for once. Did small earthquakes register before the collapse or are the CT folks making this up?
"This is why 9/11 succeeds in fooling the average American. You guys don't use your brain but rely on "experts" to interpret the obvious for you. "
If structural engineers tell me the buildings collapsed because of planes hitting them and the fire - then I believe them. If some community-college dropout tells me Cheney organised the whole thing with the NWO, yet he has no proof, how does the rational person respond?
What the hell do earthquakes have to do with it? In fact, YOU just proved that the earthquakes probably had nothing to do with any explosions; otherwise the '93 bombing would have generated similar readings.
You see, at this point I don't even need to go look for information to disprove your "facts", even though I'm sure it's available out there. Right now I can dismiss your argument not because of invalid facts, but because of the lack of logic inherent in your argument. If you claim that the seismic readings were created by explosive charges which brought down the WTC, yet you also claim that the 1993 explosion generated no seismic readings, then you're obviously wrong about one of the two. Untill you can put together an argument which doesn't contradict itself multiple times, I have no intention of wasting my time by doing research into your claims.
"This is why 9/11 succeeds in fooling the average American. You guys don't use your brain but rely on "experts" to interpret the obvious for you."
This stuff gets better and better. I try not to laugh because of the seriousness of the attacks and the destruction and death they caused, but with stuff like this, I just can't help it.
Sure, if we want to know something about a subject, especially a technical subject, why the last person we should trust would be someone who has spent years studying and researching that area of knowledge and who has advanced degrees. No, we should turn instead to some kook in a aluminum foil hat.
You have to pay for this stuff in a comedy club. You guys don't have a two drink minimum, do you?
23. Claim: Numerous firefighters and other witnesses heard explosions in the world trade center indicating the use of demolitions.
Truth: A jet liner with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel crashed into each of the towers at 500 mph. It would be suspicious if they didn’t hear subsequent explosions.
i liked this one, theoretically there would have only been one big bang, incinerating all the fuel from the plane
In response to ninja's comment.
Jet fuel is CONTAINED in a FUEL TANK, they were not perferated on impact, this ment that when the fire got hotter it ingnited the CONTENTS of the fuel tanks, therefore creating an explosion. For an example, put a CLOSED STEEL container full of gas in a burning building. I garuntee that it will take time to ignite.
Theoretically you are a moron and dont think things through, and since you thing our government killed 3,000 innocent people, then obviously you dont belong in this country
In response to Bob's comment.
1: A jet liner does not have STEEL fuel tanks.
2: It is very unlikely that any fuel tank would have survived a 500mph crash into a buliding without rupturing immediately.
So. Theoretically, you don't know the first thing about airliners, speed and inertia.
Thanks for the entertainment everyone, this made my morning cup of coffee very enjoyable.
1. The fact that the '93 WTC did not create a seismic event, is the nail in the coffin. I have been wondering about that since I watched the movie, especially since it was cleverly not mentioned. So I guess after the first attack, they decided it was best to retro fit the foundation of the towers and finally tie them into the bedrock (this would have cost millions and is practically impossible). I may be on a limb here, but I think NY sits on bedrock, not a swamp and fill like Chicago. Therefore the foundations are different. In Chicago, they use "floating foundations" in NY they tie the bldg to the bedrock to get its strength. So if one explosion is registered, the other one should have been as well. Therefore, there were no explosions. Yes, there could have been a seismic event before the collapse, but that had to be caused by the failing of the structure (see below). In '93 the structure didn't fail, and there was no seismic event.
2. The main point that everyone doesn't understand about the buildings (and is not stated in the movie at all-nor on TV) is how the structure of the buildings worked. He rattled off some facts of what the building is made of, but that means nothing; it is how it is put together to function that is important. If you notice in the movie where he mentioned what it is made of he shows a video clip of the structure under construction. Please notice that there are no columns anywhere to be seen along the floor slab, except in the core of the building, where the towers elevator shafts where. The strength of the building, was in that core (similar to our spine), with support from the exterior columns (yes the exterior of the bldg that the plane flew thru was structural that protected the interior core- similar to our ribs, but more like an exoskeleton). Once the exterior columns were severed, which took place on multiple sides and floor levels from the initial impact and then explosion which blew out portions of the ext wall. Then the core was pentrated, as evidenced by the jet fuel and flame that went barreling thru some of the shafts. The planes basically took out major portions of the structure, that still had tons of weight above it to carry. Of course it was going to collapse from structural failure, it was a matter of time. I think one structural engineered tried to call the NYPD the day of the attacks to warn them of the danger, but the word never made it to the field officers (research that to while you are at it).
Remember how the first plane hit higher then the second? Well the tower that fell first got hit second. Because it had a lot more weight to carry. If you cut several ribs (and muscles) on one side of your body and partially severe your spine (and back muscles), which is similar to what happened here, you are going to drop (not only out of pain, but because your physical structure would fail as well).
3. When steel fails it basically heats up really fast and can be distorted. When there is a high amount of force (aka energy running thru something), energy is given off as several ways: heat, sound and light (if enough is in it). When the movie describes the the melted steel foundations, that is what you would expect to find at the bottom of a building that just had collapsed on itself, and would explain why the foundations were so hot after the collapse. Can someone look into what smell is produced from steel failing as well?
4.The tiny explosions that are shown on the sides described as bombs. If they were explosions from bombs, why didn't more of exterior wall blow out? It would have been a waste of time to plant a bomb in the building 40 stories below the plane crash. Also from the attacks of '93 it would have taken a van packed with explosives to do severe damage, and last I checked vans don't fit in elevators. Also since the bobs would have been huge to do real damage to the steel, the puffs of air that is seen would have been huge. The tiny burst are from concentrations of air from the collapsing floors above. Or the forces being pushed down on the steel below causing it to fail catastrophically in the weakest portions.
dear dbucks:
(1) WTC (a) WTC 1, 2, and 7 were the first 3 steel-frame buildings in history to (allegedly) collapse due to fire. Several steel-frame skyscrapers around the world have had huge fires that burned throughout several floors for several hours, and none of these buildings collapsed. The official explanation of the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 claims that the impact of the aircrafts weakened the structures (which of course they would have to some degree), but NIST actually admits to fudging its models to make them more plausibly (to the casual researcher) explain the collapses, and it also simply lies and contradicts itself. For example, they alter the path of flight 175 so they can argue that it damaged the core columns. The report is misleading in many other ways. much more here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/
The NIST Report completely ignores building 7, saying it will be considered “at a later date.” The Bush-appointed, 10-member corruption-squad known as the 9-11 Commission also ignored building 7 - most Americans don't even know about building 7, because the media have ignored it. Also, if you look at the video of the North Tower’s collapse, you can see that the top portion above the impact zone actually collapses in on itself from the bottom up, before the rest of the collapse proceeds (b) WTC 7 is the most obvious - no jet hit this building, and although some mention that the fuel tanks in the building may have contributed, FEMA said they were all intact, and, as already noted, fires do not make steel-frame buildings collapse, and random fires could not, by any stretch of the imagination, make a steel-frame building collapse so methodically into a neat little rubble pile within its own footprint, maintaining perfect radial symmetry all the way down, and falling at freefall speed. This only happens with controlled demolition. Unfortunately, most people are unaware of building 7, but the word is spreading thanks to many serious researchers. FEMA was actually able to obtain sections of the steel beams from WTC 7, and it found sulfidation in combination with rapid corrosion – a trademark of the use of thermate (the military version of thermite) cutter chargers – the presence of sulfidation and rapid corrosion can only be explained by the use of thermate. the fires in WTC 7 were only on partial sections of 2 floors, and even if the fires had engulfed the building for days, it would not have collapsed. Silverstein's slip-up about 'pulling it' also gave it away. his publicist later claimed that Silverstein meant 'pulling' the firefighters out of the building. 'pulling' is a term commonly used to refer to controlled demolition. FEMA has actually admitted that it cannot explain the collapse of building 7 (b) the official explanation ignores the thermal conductivity of steel. There would have been a massive heatsink from the steel beams, and the heat would have spread to other parts of the steel-beam mesh, rather than weakening proximal beams (b) the 'Pancake Theory', used to describe the collapse mode, has never existed as a collapse mechanism theory in structural engineering prior to 9-11. ‘Pancaking’ has happened before, but to one building (L'Ambience Plaza) that was still in the early stages of construction and was using a special construction method – the lift-slab system – and wasn’t doing it properly, and what happened wasn’t called ‘pancaking’ before 9-11. the term 'progressive collapse' has been used before, but no steel-frame building has ever collapsed due to this mechanism. the Ronan Point incident, in 1968, is most often cited by disinformation websites, although they don’t tell you what actually happened - this incident actually consisted of one tiny corner of balconies, and the collapsed balconies were short cantilever sections supported by the building's main structure - so there were no steel beams to prevent this little corner from collapsing progressively. (c)'squibs', a trademark of controlled demolition, can be seen in the videos of the collapses, and are especially obvious in WTC 7. the offical story attempts to explain them away as concrete dust and debris being pushed out of the windows by the force of the collapse, but they occur much below the level of collapse, and they occur just prior to the initiation of collapse in WTC 7. (d) Marvin Bush's contract with Stratesec(Securicom), the company that provided security for the WTC, United Airlines, and Dulles Internation Airport, was set to end on 9/10/01, the day before 9/11. (e) I've verified that there were several unexplained evacuations in the WTC towers in the weeks prior to the attacks: Ben Fountain, a financial analyst with Fireman's Fund, was coming out of the Chambers Street Station, headed for his office on the 47th floor of the south tower. "How could they let this happen? They knew this building was a target. Over the past few weeks we'd been evacuated a number of times, which is unusual. I think they had an inkling something was going on." (Source: People Magazine. Sept. 12th 2001). (f) Battalion Chief Orio J. Palmer had reached the 78th floor of the South Tower by 9:48 -- 11 minutes before the explosive collapse began -- and reported via radio "two isolated pockets of fire." (g) all three buildings maintained prefect radial symmetry as they collapsed – if the buildings had collapsed due to randomly-placed fires (which simply doesn’t happen – even full-fledged infernos don’t make steel-frame buildings collapse), they would not have fallen straight down into their own footprints (h) as Professor Steven Jones of BYU points out, flowing pools of molten steel were reported by eyewitnesses – impossible with hydrocarbon fires, but easily explained by the use of thermate cutter charges (i) the temperatures simply were not hot enough, and weren’t sustained long enough, to weaken the steel, let alone melt it, in such a short period of time, especially considering the thermal conductivity of steel (j) the explosive force of the collapses cannot be explained by mere gravity – debris was ejected out several hundred feet – huge steel beams were found 300 feet away.
Pakistani Intelligence Agency (ISI, which was founded by the CIA and still has close ties with the CIA, like Al Qaeda) was the middle-man between Washington insiders and the clueless terrorists:
October 9, courtesy of the Times of India:
"While the Pakistani Inter Services Public Relations claimed that former ISI [Pakistani intelligence] director-general Lt-Gen Mahmud Ahmad sought retirement after being superseded on Monday, the truth is more shocking. Top sources confirmed here on Tuesday that the general lost his job because of the 'evidence' India produced to show his links to one of the suicide bombers that wrecked the World Trade Center. The U.S. authorities sought his removal after confirming the fact that $100,000 were wired to WTC hijacker Mohammed Atta from Pakistan by [Omar Saeed] at the instance of General Mahmud [Ahmad]."
September 9—two days before 9/11 — Karachi News made the following observation:
"ISI Chief Lt-Gen [Mahmud Ahmad's] week-long presence in Washington has triggered speculation about the agenda of his mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council . . . What added interest to his visit is the history of such visits. Last time Ziauddin Butt, [General Ahmad's] predecessor, was here during Nawaz Sharif's government, the domestic politics turned topsy-turvy within days. That this is not the first visit by [General Ahmad] in the last three months shows the urgency of the ongoing parleys."
Israeli intelligence agency (Mossad) and government insiders knew the attacks were coming, and may have been involved in them:
Mossad agents were filming the towers before the airplanes even hit them, and began dancing and celebrating when the planes hit and when the towers collapsed :
This is a link to the article originally published by ABC News:
http://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1405
Source: ABC News, Saturday, June 22nd, 2002.
“A counterintelligence investigation by the FBI concluded that at least two of them were in fact Mossad operatives, according to the former American official, who said he was regularly briefed on the investigation by two separate law enforcement officials.”
Source: The Forward, March 15th, 2002
Larry A. Silverstein – signed a 99-year lease on the World Trade Center 6 weeks before the attacks. A $3,500,000,000 insurance policy, specifically covering acts of terrorism, was included in the lease. This lease was an unprecedented privatization of the WTC complex. After 9/11, Silverstein demanded $7 billion, claiming that the two planes constituted two separate acts of terrorism.
Larry A. Silverstein is a close friend of Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, and Ehud Barak: “Shortly after the events of September 11, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called Larry Silverstein, a Jewish real estate magnate in New York, the owner of the World Trade Center's 110-story Twin Towers and a close friend, to ask how he was. Since then they have spoken a few more times. Two former prime ministers - Benjamin Netanyahu, who this week called Silverstein a "friend," and Ehud Barak, whom Silverstein in the past offered a job as his representative in Israel - also called soon after the disaster.”
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=97338&contrassID=3&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0
Flight 77 and the Pentagon:
JUNE 2001: The Pentagon initiates new instructions for military intervention in the case of a highjacking. these new instructions state that, for all "nonimmediate" responses (whatever that means), the Department of Defense must get permission directly from the Secretary of Defense (Rumsfeld).
Source: Joint Chiefs of Staff Document:
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf
http://www.911review.com/means/standdown.html
October 24, 2000: the Pentagon conducted the first of two training exercises called MASCAL (Mass Casualty), which simulated a Boeing 757 hitting the Pentagon.
Source: The U.S. Army Military District of Washington (MDW)
Charles Burlingame had actually retired 20 years earlier, but he still participated in the MASCAL exercise at the Pentagon, a year before the attacks:
Charles F. Burlingame III was the pilot of flight 77. He was an F-4 pilot in the Navy, and as his last Navy mission, he had helped craft Pentagon response plans in the event of a commercial airliner hitting the Pentagon.
Source: Associated Press. August 22, 2002
http://anderson.ath.cx:8000/911/pen08.html
Barbara Honegger, who worked in the White House under Reagan, points out another coincidence. Researching press reports, she found a 9/16/01 Washington Post story about the pilot of AA flight 77 that, on the morning of 9/11, was said to have crashed into the Pentagon.
Here's Barbara Honegger:
...the main pilot of the 9-11 Pentagon plane, former Navy and then Navy Reservist pilot Charles Burlingame, had recently, in a Reserve assignment at the Pentagon, been part of a Task Force that drafted the Pentagon's emergency response plan on what to do in case a plane hit the building - which his own plane then did. It is therefore very possible - in fact extremely likely, if not certain - that this 'task force' that Flight 77 pilot "Chick" Burlingame was part of was the Cheney counterterrorism preparedness task force, and that the Pentagon plane pilot, therefore, directly knew and even worked with/for Cheney. and
Burlingame's 9-11 Pentagon plane not only hit the Pentagon that morning, it struck a Command and Control center for that morning's counterterrorism "game" exercise, killing most, if not all, of the "players". We know this because Army personnel from Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey were on special duty assignment at the Pentagon that morning for an emergency response exercise and were killed when Burlingame's plane hit. Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey also happens to be the headquarters for White House/Presidential communications, including therefore probably also for Air Force One (this is discoverable) -- and recall the warning "Air Force One is next" and the 'secret code' which was called into the White House that morning which WH press secretary Ari Fleischer revealed as a means of explaining why Pres. Bush left Florida for a military base and did not return to the White House. This "warning" was probably called into the White House, if true, by either the Ft. Monmouth White House communications headquarters and/or the Ft. Monmouth counterterrorism exercise "game" players temporarily at the Pentagon that morning.
This means the pilot of Flight 77 participated in MASCAL in October of 2000, an exercise which simulated a Boeing 757 crashing into the Pentagon.
Flight 77 hit the one and only section of the Pentagon that had been renovated to withstand just such an attack:
"Luck — if it can be called that — had it that the terrorists aimed the Boeing 757 at the only part of the Pentagon that already had been renovated in an 11-year, $1.3 billion project meant to bolster it against attack. That significantly limited the damage and loss of life by slowing the plane as it tore through the building and reducing the explosion's reach." Source: USA Today (1/01/02)
“Not all the offices were occupied that morning because of the renovation. In addition, the outer ring had been reinforced by floor-to-ceiling steel beams that ran through all five floors. Between them was a Kevlar-like mesh, similar to the material in bulletproof vests, which kept masonry from becoming shrapnel. Together, the beams and the mesh formed a citadel that kept the top floors from collapsing for about 35 minutes, time enough for some people to escape. New blast-resistant windows above the crash site didn't shatter. A new sprinkler system kept the fires from consuming the entire place.
When the plane hit wedge 1, workers were just a few days away from completing a three-year renovation of that section."
Source: USNews (12/10/01)
“The Pentagon has been undergoing some structural upgrades and retrofits, including new blastproof windows made of KevlarT that were, fortuitously, in place on the side of impact. This reinforced section of the building had a significant effect on reducing the extent of damage.”
Source: Fire Engineering Magazine (11/02)
"The 1,000,000-square-foot wedge was five days away from completion when it was struck by hijacked American Airlines Flight 77." Source: Annual Status Report to Congress (3/01/02)
I have yet to research the 9-11 war games in depth. These are another crucial piece of evidence. Also, the secret service inexplicably violated protocol, and Bush’s inaction is also damning.
Those who push "Loose Change" ignore the real documentaries that are high quality: Denial Stops Here, The Truth and Lies of 9/11, The Great Conspiracy, and the footage from the 9/11 Citizens Commission hearing in New York City on September 9, 2004. Links to these and other films are at www.oilempire.us/movies.html
"At 4:57 PM, Bob said...
Theoretically you are a moron and dont think things through, and since you thing our government killed 3,000 innocent people, then obviously you dont belong in this country"
Theoretically YOU are a moron that doesn't think things through. I can think of PLENTY of occasions when the US government has killed 3,000+ INNOCENT PEOPLE, so maybe your country doesn't belong on this planet.
22. Claim: Kevin Ryan from Underwriters Laboratories, the company that certified the steel that was used in the World Trade Center, stated the steel should not have melted at the temperatures they were exposed to.
Just a thought, if the steel could have easily survived a fire of that magnitude without losing integrity, why would the builders of the WTC even bother with fireproofing the structural steel elements?? Also, about the jet fuel not burning hot enough..
"It was the simultaneous fires, on multiple floors, rather than burning jet fuel (much of which was consumed in the initial fireballs), that weakened the structural steel elements enough to precipitate the collapse."
(W. Gene Corley of the American Society of Civil Engineers, and Jonathan Barnett present the findings of the World Trade Center building performance study to the House Committee on Science on May 1.)
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/tower.html
Also, who said that all the structural failures had to come from a fire? You think the plane hitting the building would have done some serious structural damage, maybe breaking a whole bunch of steel beams, even without a fire.
22. Claim: Kevin Ryan from Underwriters Laboratories, the company that certified the steel that was used in the World Trade Center, stated the steel should not have melted at the temperatures they were exposed to.
Just a thought, if the steel could have easily survived a fire of that magnitude without losing integrity, why would the builders of the WTC even bother with fireproofing the structural steel elements?? Also, about the jet fuel not burning hot enough..
"It was the simultaneous fires, on multiple floors, rather than burning jet fuel (much of which was consumed in the initial fireballs), that weakened the structural steel elements enough to precipitate the collapse."
(W. Gene Corley of the American Society of Civil Engineers, and Jonathan Barnett present the findings of the World Trade Center building performance study to the House Committee on Science on May 1.)
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/tower.html
Also, who said that all the structural failures had to come from a fire? You think the plane hitting the building would have done some serious structural damage, maybe breaking a whole bunch of steel beams, even without a fire.
Man, your "source" links point to other blogs, not actual articles from credible resources. Didn't you learn anything about research papers in high school?... or are you even in high school yet? I'm not saying you're write or wrong, but if you're going to try to prove or disprove something don't use Jr. High research skills - and don't nit-pick at things here and there.
"Also, who said that all the structural failures had to come from a fire? You think the plane hitting the building would have done some serious structural damage, maybe breaking a whole bunch of steel beams, even without a fire."
This is the most intriguing possiblity to me. Being what has been said about the insufficient fire temp., I think that this the best chance to explain how a skyscraper can totally collapse from getting hit by a plane.
I think it would be better if someone (maybe I'll do it) posted some data on the molecular strength of iron and it's welds from an almanac that was written long before 2001 than quote a bunch of experts who were interviewd after 9/11.
Is it true that the "elevator core" beams were continuous from top to bottom? That would mean that they had to erect a bunch of beams that were 1,300 feet in length, with a crane, helicopter or something.
And what's stronger - the iron weld in between the beams or the iron itself?
There's a book called "Men or Iron", which was written by (or with) Donald Koch, one of the guys who designed or built the towers. That book might explain some things about the supports.
Regarding #22 and #23:
LC seems to suggest that the steel supports needed to "liquify" in order to give way. In fact, they only needed to "soften" to give way, which occurs at a FAR lower temperature than the melting point of steel.
On #23: The "multiple explosions" would be due to a number of causes: primarilly "backdraft" as trapped oxygen insided sealed offices suddenly exploded as fire breached their interior. The next is due to collapsing walls, floors and debris. Another source of "explosions" might be any chemicals and/or cleaning products catching fire in bathrooms and maintence rooms. (other more obscure causes can also be included... not a single one of which produced a flaming fireball explosion of the size necessary to take out an entire floor).
Yep, the guy lied in order to get himself locked up for life. Makes sense. Maybe I should go confess to starting WW2. It really wasn't Hitlers fault you know, I bet him $20 he couldn't invade Poland, and things just kinda went down hill from there.
I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously. What part of the word Jihad don't you understand? These people want to die for their faith. It is an honor for them. Just like many Americans would die for there freedom. Mussoui didn't want to spend his life in prison, he wanted to die? Did you not watch the trial?
So True - jihad is a threat to our humanity and civilization. So, how does a democracy go after such animol in total, in mass - YOU SINK THE MAINE................
"Sure, if we want to know something about a subject, especially a technical subject, why the last person we should trust would be someone who has spent years studying and researching that area of knowledge and who has advanced degrees. No, we should turn instead to some kook in a aluminum foil hat. "
What, you don't get your medical advice from the cable guy, lol.
Seriously though, I love these wingnut whackjobs, because no matter how stupid I feel at times, they consistently remind me that there are others much stupider
"In fact, they only needed to "soften" to give way, which occurs at a FAR lower temperature than the melting point of steel."
It sure does. Just ask the steel nails that we used to hang pictures on our walls that gave way during our recent house fire, a fire that burned much cooler than one fueled by jet fuel AND was localized to a small area but affected most every picture-supporting nail in our home.
the problem here seems taht one part does not trust the other parts information. And for those who believe that it was an outside job what i think that the conspiracy lovers are trying to say is that official experts such has scientists and faa speciallist are all corrupted or that they are lying. so what i think is the best way to collect information is to get data from reports and experiences that relate with the subjext but are not compromised.
also why other buildings didnt colapse after burnig for hours could be from the way they were built, because in the towers if on floor gave away it would fall on top of another and all the way to the ground.
You see, that's the point. There is no possible way that the federal government could get to every single source and pay them or threaten them enough to keep them quiet, especially when 3000 of their own countrymen are dead. The major problem with the CTs is that they think the government is God and can do anything. The strange thing is that how can a government *that* powerful still bungle it so badly that there's enough evidence to construct a conspiracy theory? You can't have it both ways. And if the government did bungle it so badly, then why did it take these people 5 years to figure it out? Is there any relation to the fact that it's an election year? Hmm.
They didn’t, as you so eloquently put it, bungle it they didn’t want unpredictable building collapses’ killing more people than necessary and damaging other properties. They just wanted the building down so they could blame it on some one in order to justify war for oil oops I mean war on terrorism. And the simple fact is that there is just no way now that any one will ever be able to prove let me say that word again prroovve whether or whether not these buildings collapsed or were demolished because the government destroyed all the evidence. As well the federal government doesn’t have to get to every source if no one can prroovve that the government was involved. If you want to see what people think why don’t you check out the zogby polls for new Yorkers concerning this subject.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Oh and it didn’t take us five years to figure it out. We’ve been saying it from the beginning freakin noob
russet shadow, I know that it probably hurts you’re your brain to do all that much research so I went and found the zogby poll for you. Avail yourself and read it.
Released: August 30, 2004
Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals
On the eve of a Republican National Convention invoking 9/11 symbols, sound bytes and imagery, half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act," according to the poll conducted by Zogby International. The poll of New York residents was conducted from Tuesday August 24 through Thursday August 26, 2004. Overall results have a margin of sampling error of +/-3.5.
The poll is the first of its kind conducted in America that surveys attitudes regarding US government complicity in the 9/11 tragedy. Despite the acute legal and political implications of this accusation, nearly 30% of registered Republicans and over 38% of those who described themselves as "very conservative" supported the claim.
The charge found very high support among adults under 30 (62.8%), African-Americans (62.5%), Hispanics (60.1%), Asians (59.4%), and "Born Again" Evangelical Christians (47.9%).
Less than two in five (36%) believe that the 9/11 Commission had "answered all the important questions about what actually happened on September 11th," and two in three (66%) New Yorkers (and 56.2% overall) called for another full investigation of the "still unanswered questions" by Congress or Elliot Spitzer, New York's Attorney General. Self-identified "very liberal" New Yorkers supported a new inquiry by a margin of three to one, but so did half (53%) of "very conservative" citizens across the state. The call for a deeper probe was especially strong from Hispanics (75.6%), African-Americans (75.3%) citizens with income from $15-25K (74.3%), women (62%) and Evangelicals (59.9%).
W. David Kubiak, executive director of 911truth.org, the group that commissioned the poll, expressed genuine surprise that New Yorkers' belief in the administration's complicity is as high or higher than that seen overseas. "We're familiar with high levels of 9/11 skepticism abroad where there has been open debate of the evidence for US government complicity. On May 26th the Toronto Star reported a national poll showing that 63% of Canadians are also convinced US leaders had 'prior knowledge' of the attacks yet declined to act. There was no US coverage of this startling poll or the facts supporting the Canadians' conclusions, and there has been virtually no debate on the victim families' scores of still unanswered questions. I think these numbers show that most New Yorkers are now fed up with the silence, and that politicians trying to exploit 9/11 do so at their peril. The 9/11 case is not closed and New York's questions are not going away."
Nicholas Levis of NY911truth.org, an advisor on the poll, agrees, "The 9/11 Commission gave us a plenty of 'recommendations', but far more plentiful were the discrepancies, gaps and omissions in their supposedly 'final' report. How can proposals based on such deficient findings ever make us safe? We think these poll numbers are basically saying, 'Wait just a minute. What about the scores of still outstanding questions? What about the unexplained collapses of WTC 7, our air defenses, official accountability, the chain of command on 9/11, the anthrax, insider trading & FBI field probes? There's so much more to this story that we need to know about.' When such a huge majority of New Yorkers want a new investigation, it will be interesting to see how quickly Attorney General Spitzer and our legislators respond."
SCOPE: The poll covered five areas of related interest: 1) Iraq - do New Yorkers think that our leaders "deliberately misled" us before the war (51.2% do); 2) the 9/11 Commission - did it answer all the "important questions" (only 36% said yes); 3) the inexplicable and largely unreported collapse of the third WTC skyscraper on 9/11 - what was its number (28% of NYC area residents knew); 4) the question on complicity; and 5) how many wanted a new 9/11 probe. All inquiries about questions, responses and demographics should be directed to Zogby International.
SPONSOR: 911truth.org is a coalition of researchers, journalists and victim family members working to expose and resolve the hundreds of critical questions still swirling around 9/11, especially the nearly 400 questions that the Family Steering Committee filed with the 9/11Commission which they fought to create. Initially welcomed by the commissioners as a "road map" for their inquiry, these queries cut to the heart of 9/11 crimes and accountability. Specifically, they raised the central issues of motive, means and cui bono (who profited?). But the Commission ignored the majority of these questions, opting only to explore system failures, miscommunications and incompetence. The victim families' most incisive issues remain unaddressed to this day. The Zogby International poll was also cosponsored by Walden Three (walden3.org) and 9/11 Citizens Watch (911citizenswatch.org), a watchdog group which has monitored the Commission since its inception and will release its findings, "The 9/11 Omission Report," in several weeks.
On September 9th and 11th, 911Truth.org will cosponsor two large successive inquiries in New York, a preliminary 9/11 Citizens Commission hearing and "Confronting the Evidence: 9/11 and the Search for Truth," a research-focused evidentiary forum. These inquiries will examine many of the 9/11 Commission-shunned questions and discuss preparation of a probable cause complaint demanding a grand jury and criminal investigation from the New York Attorney General. Possible charges range from criminal negligence and gross dereliction of duty to foreknowledge, complicity and subsequent obstruction of justice. For details and developments, see www.911truth.org. For press info, contact Kyle Hence 212-243-7787 kylehence@earthlink.net
Zogby International conducted interviews of 808 adults chosen at random in New York State. All calls were made from Zogby International headquarters in Utica, N.Y., from 8/24/04 through 8/26/04. The margin of error is +/- 3.5 percentage points. Slight weights were added to region, party, age, race, religion, and gender to more accurately reflect the population. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups.
SomebodysGotAScrewLoose said...
They just wanted the building down so they could blame it on some one in order to justify war for oil oops I mean war on terrorism. And the simple fact is that there is just no way now that any one will ever be able to prove...whether or not these buildings collapsed or were demolished because the government destroyed all the evidence.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say you know the buildings were demolished and then say that there's no way to prove it because all the evidence has been destroyed.
I mean, maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But if you really do "know" what has transpired when the evidence that could prove that has been destroyed, then you should look to get a job in the law courts, because the justice system could surely save a lot of money that they currently spend looking at physical evidence.
the facts overwhelmingly show that 9/11 was carried out by PNAC elements in government. the only reason they haven't been put away for life yet is that the media have a blackout of the truth going on. they only look at the worst evidence, and even that very rarely. they interviewed Dylan Avery, but not British MP Michael Meacher, former German Minister of Defense Adreas von Buleow, MIT engineer Jeff King, doctor of physics Steven Jones, Jim Hoffman, David Ray Griffin, Robert M. Bowman, Jim Fetzer, Republican Karl Schwarts, CIA analyst Ray McGovern, and on and on and on.
http://belowgroundsurface.org
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I have never, in any of my posts, said that I know for a fact that the building were demolished but what I have said is that I have an intricate knowledge of physics and what I’m saying now is that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then odds are that it is a duck. And I guarantee you that any court in this country will admit evidence based on this principle.
sigh.... what does your car use to run? Oil (or its manufactured byproducts) that is because it is an internal combustion engine. That means it needs fuel to work. Since a car uses an internal combustion engine, then why would a tank, sub, aircraft carrier, or plane not need it? The problem is they do. That means that without the oil, we have no tanks, subs, aircraft carriers, or planes. Without these above mentioned machines, we have no defense for our country. Sure we have our own supply, but it is limited and will last us a long while. The government could even take all the oil from us and use it for the military, but seeing as though we bitch about 3 dollars per gallon of gas (where other countries pay more than that) we could not stand to be separated from the thing that lets us drive down the block instead of walk. So if you go on about the whole "no blood for oil" bullshit, welcome to a defenseless country. (In my opinion, the more blood the better. YEA population control!!)
Seeing the video of the first collapse made me a bit curious. It was the main reason I even looked into conspiracy theories.
The top of the building above the crash was originally falling off to the side. That chunk of the building should have (according to simple physics) kept falling in that direction. It didn't. Instead, it disintegrated into the rest of the building.
Just looking at video footage of the collapse should be enough to make (intelligent) people wonder.
I was very excited when I found out about this website. Many of the claims proposed by the film have been resonating in my head for a year now. I didn't know what to make of these claims, I just wanted to hear something contra to them. This blog is supposed to do that, and does do so for some of the questions.
Most of what I see on this blog is bickering back and forth. The people who run this blog are as juvenile as as some of the irate conspiracy nuts (By which I do not mean skeptics). Why would I take the blog owners seriously when they have condescending pet names for conspiracy theorists and routinely refer to the opposition as dullards and other insulting names that do nothing to help their argument?
I won't go into detail about how most of the refuting evidence is extremely weak. The blog discredits itself by claiming to have sources that are in actuality just other pages of their own blog. Are the blog owners oblivious to the concept that people will be coming here looking for facts? Apparently they think that their work and "citations" are professional in nature and people may indeed mistake them for facts. When there are external citations they are almost relevant, (eg. the Purdue pentagon crash model) or just a link to another blog.
I do not believe that our government would support or orchestrate such a terrible thing. However some of the questions raised by the film are just too intriguing to pass over. This website has not put my questions to rest.
Anyone who takes Loose Change (and all those other garbage theories) seriously should watch or rewatch the episode of South Park that had the "Hardly Boys" on it.
every single person on loose change and this website is stupid. No one knows what happened and no one ever will.
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All the blocking of questions and testimony from eye witnesses and the people who lobbied for the investigation are also very telling.
I have a degree in building construction technology and I can tell you, there is no way those buildings could fall at free fall speed without the use of explosives.
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